You promised unpopular opinions, and if nothing else, you sure delivered.

it's just too bizarre for me to take it seriously, especially the car part, and this is coming from someone who usually enjoys surrealism(I'm a big Alice in Wonderland fan, for example.

The movie can be made sense of, in fact it's a quite logical interlocking web of character motivations and interactions, it's just that it is extremely dense in its presentation and relies on the viewer to infer a lot from each scene - hard in a movie format, where everything happens so quickly in an uninterrupted stream. If you are interested in an in-depth deconstruction of the movie in a hopefully easily readable and digestible form, I invite you to read my four analyses that examine the movie in a Q&A-style format by examining its four major characters:

Akio,
Utena,
Anthy, and
Touga.

Best read in this order. I hope you may find them enlightening, or at least reasonable in their conclusions.

As for an unpopular opinion from me...it seems odd to me that it is one, but it's the fact that I take the scene of young Utena's visitation from Dios at face value, when so many people seem to want to turn that scene into just another piece of Akio's plan. To me that scene was meant to stand apart from almost every other moment in the show, because it shows the objective truth of what really happened. It is not a scene of any character remembering something or having something be revealed to them - on the contrary, it is a peculiarly (and starkly) disembodied scene in terms of viewpoint, divorced from the slant or bias of any character's perception of it. It is something being revealed solely and directly to us, the viewers, while the characters themselves remain ignorant of it.

We know from Akio's sardonic "conversation" with Dios in episode 13, as well as certain events during the finale, that some shadow or specter of Dios must remain vaguely on the fringes of existence. That night, it really did reach out to a young woman and showed her something eternal, the eternal suffering of Anthy, in the hope that she could be saved. Akio takes credit for this, but shows no detailed knowledge of what actually happened; this claim is just another of his many lies. He had no hand in it. (Incidentally, despite being a hugely important element of the scene, Anthy is even more clearly shown to have absolutely no knowledge, remembrance, or awareness of it ever having occurred.)

This is how I have always viewed that scene, and I honestly feel like people who want to attribute it to Akio grooming Utena years in advance are overthinking it, having fallen into the trap of wanting even more cynicism from the show than it actually already possesses, as well as attributing to Akio far-reaching supernatural powers that he is shown not to possess outside of what the Projector is capable of.

Last edited by Aelanie (12-16-2016 02:21:06 AM)

I think the manga's shallower nature is, to some degree, intentional - if not on Sato's part, then at least Ikuhara was fully aware of that it would happen, and even if that's not true I think it's very easy to read it as such.

I won't analyze it right here but basically, in the final battle Utena is still going on about being a prince and Anthy is like "no, Utena, I don't need a prince to save me" but Utena doesn't listen to her at all. In the manga Utena isn't "ready". She hasn't understood the deeper meanings going on in her own story.

As far as the show goes, I was never that attached to Juri. It might have had to do with me not following her story very well, but she just wasn't my favorite like a lot of other lesbians'. Later, I ended up liking Shiori.

I like the manga too.  It's not very deep but it's entertaining.

I also think that Utena and Anthy are a couple in the movie and just friends in the anime.

Well I guess Ill give it a shot. The obvious is that I love shiori so much and just thinking about her twisted mind makes me feel creeped out and yet intrigued. But I support the theory that what shiori felt for juri was lust and not so much jealousy. I think that the evidence to this is, well, the fact that she takes the sword out of juri. In my opinoin taking a persons sword is synonyms with rape, a theme which ikuhara likes to use in his work (sailor moon super s, penguindrum and yuri kuma are shows where its a motif in visuals) and why would you do such an act if not for love or lust? Shiori is a character that mixes lust and jealousy which makes her and juri's romance tragic, both towrn apart by either shame (juri) or the sadism and jealousy of their broken mind (shiori). Shiori also seems to have inferiority problems which is why she dates brown hair guy (I dont want to say too much, but people with brown hair: low on the hierarchy, colored hair: medium and with special cloth the highest) but then she dumped him but she gets her karma returned when ruka arrives who is in a higher status then her but is crushed because of his plans and is crushed by the inferiority he made her feel made her go nuts. would say more, but it would be to messy. Hope you enjoyed:)

If you skip Zettai Unmmei Mokushiroku then you didn't really watch the episode.

Shiori is the best character.

Arale wrote:

I was going to make a thread for this but this thread exists so I guess it's a good place to say it. This is less of an unpopular SKU opinion and more of an unpopular SKU fact. The dub barely changes the script at all. I can get finding the voices' stilted and rythmic deliver to be distracting, even though I love it personally, but either way, watching the dub still gives you pretty much the exact same experience otherwise. It's not a "bad 90s dub" in terms of censorship or added jokes or anything like that. (Except for "nice skirt, Saionji" lol.) And pronouncing the characters' names incorrectly stops in the Black Rose Saga (not coincidentally, this is when Ikuhara himself began helping the dubbers - the actors' performances get pretty emotional starting here too.) Sorry I just had to get that out because I see fans and even an AnimeNewsNetwork article claim otherwise about the script. (That ANN article claimed the same for Penguindrum, which to my knowledge ALSO has a near-exact-to-script dub, also with awkward voices.)

I really agree on this, the dub is very faithful to the original script and the acting gets better with time (still one of the not so good dubs, but it is better then other 90's dubs). Also, the movie dub is actually really good and the performances are exponentially better then the series but no one seems to notice.

- There's nothing romantic or sexual about Utena and Anthy's relationship in the series.
- I don't care about Juri or anything to do with her story arc aside from the baller duel songs.
- The only good thing about the movie is the soundtrack.

Them's fightin' words, Gio...

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 12:11:23 AM)

You said unpopular opinions. I gots me lot of those, and I won't even defend them. I will say though, that one thing I have never heard in almost 20 years is 'My favorite characters are Akio and Juri.'

But Akio banging Mr. Ohtori isn't unpopular so much as not brought up - sounds like a totally reasonable opinion to me.

You know, I think you could probably write a perfectly acceptable fanfic on this subject with very little devotion to the accuracy of Japanese societal depictions. The show itself explicitly departs from aspects of Japanese culture all the time, so a tit for tat situation is likely more than acceptable.

The premise of a guy running roughshod over a highly regarded head of a strong family already gleefully subverts accepted social norms for Japanese society. Regard and respect for the hierarchy are important there, where this would be a very...western, even American thing. American values (used to at least ugh) endorse mobility on the social ladder by any means available, it's a consequence of individuality. In that sense, Akio has always struck me as a very American character--a comparison I consider canon given the car he drives and that he's surrounded by jazz music.

That might be an unpopular opinion in and of itself, though? He certainly embraces cultural appropriation on a truly American scale...or are we supposed to believe Akio and Anthy are Hindu?

Yasha wrote:

I dislike that Utena is considered yuri anime because to me labeling it by sexuality cheapens it

Makes me sad to hear you feel that way. Utena is not only a yuri anime, but it is actually one of the three pillars that founded modern yuri as we know it in the late 90s, along with Sailor Moon and Maria-sama ga Miteru. The success of these titles and the resulting fan groundswell is what showed publishers that there was a real market for female/female romance, and thus it began to take cohesive form in the early 2000s.

Whether you believe it or not, yuri and its representations have been a comfort and a solace to many women-loving women the world over. I know this as an absolute truth. So even if that is not the case for you, please don't begrudge us loving a thing for what it is, and what it created. Utena is more than just a romance between two girls, but it still undeniably is that.

I don't think Ikuhara on his own is such hot shit. He's got the surreality, but Penguindrum was a bit flat compared to Utena and I noped out of Yuri Bear Storm on the third episode. He needs the rest of the bePapas or an equivalent team of checks and balances or else he goes too far up his own ass.

This I actually agree with, and have thought so ever since MPD was airing. Yuri Kuma Arashi was actually a huge disappointment, especially as he had engaged the legendary yuri manga artist, Morishima Akiko. If she had actually been allowed to write the anime script it would've been very different, and vastly superior. As it is, well...let me repost something I wrote about it elsewhere:

I was profoundly disappointed by YKA. Ultimately, the show sank into the mire of the unpleasant atmosphere it worked hard to create. Which is the point, I know. It was intended that way. It’s a show about intolerance, obsession, and death, and revolves around a repetitious series of events caused by those forces. However, in contrast to Utena and MPD, I just felt wearied by it rather than compelled.

I agree completely that, ultimately, the "yuri" in the show was rendered meaningless. It exists in a state of quantum superposition, with observers – this observer at least – unable to tell where it is supposed to be, and where it is going. However it may have ended, it managed to become a "yuri anime" that leeched all pleasure out of the yuri. That’s certainly a unique accomplishment, I guess you could say, but for once, I’m not sure Ikuhara would feel complimented by me thinking so.

One thing I can certainly say: his confident claim in that interview that he would "keep the soul of Morishima’s work intact" was a total failure. Next time her work is adapted (and I pray there is a next time, many next times, and soon), let her writing stand on its own.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 08:46:27 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

You know, I think you could probably write a perfectly acceptable fanfic on this subject with very little devotion to the accuracy of Japanese societal depictions. The show itself explicitly departs from aspects of Japanese culture all the time, so a tit for tat situation is likely more than acceptable.

That's true. I think I might write it then, though keeping in mind that Utena while devoid of the presence of a Confucian / Japanese society is still fueled by a Japanese perception of vaguely Western Fairytales. If RGU was a cartoon show made by an American studio, we'd probably get more Brothers Grimm references. Don't know how that would go, Lol.

Giovanna wrote:

The premise of a guy running roughshod over a highly regarded head of a strong family already gleefully subverts accepted social norms for Japanese society. Regard and respect for the hierarchy are important there, where this would be a very...western, even American thing. American values (used to at least ugh) endorse mobility on the social ladder by any means available, it's a consequence of individuality. In that sense, Akio has always struck me as a very American character--a comparison I consider canon given the car he drives and that he's surrounded by jazz music.

That might be an unpopular opinion in and of itself, though? He certainly embraces cultural appropriation on a truly American scale...or are we supposed to believe Akio and Anthy are Hindu?

This made me chuckle.

Yasha wrote:

- I think it would be really fucking creepy for Anthy, who is possibly hundreds of years old, to have a sexual relationship with Utena, a fourteen year old, at the point that they leave Ohtori. I believe they love each other, and I believe they have the possibility for romance down the line, but right then? Yeah... no. Utena needs to be an adult before anything like that. The experience difference is just too huge if Utena's that young.

This always lied in the back of my head actually. I guess I explained to myself that Ohtori academy is a magical timeless land w/ actual detrimental effects on Anthy and Akio's psychological development and that, while she was technically thousands of years old, mentally Anthy was a 14 year old. But yeah, this is something that fandom and creators alike have been largely silent about.

Yasha wrote:

- I don't think Ikuhara on his own is such hot shit. He's got the surreality, but Penguindrum was a bit flat compared to Utena and I noped out of Yuri Bear Storm on the third episode. He needs the rest of the bePapas or an equivalent team of checks and balances or else he goes too far up his own ass.

Same Lol. Penguindrum was so decidedly heterosexual and [the one gay female character we had attempted to rape a minor... I know she was portrayed sympathetically, but why do we have to flirt with the crazy lesbian trope again? ] Then again, I only watched the first few episodes, got bored and decided to read the TV tropes page instead.

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 09:05:49 PM)