The swords of hatred is my favorite image in SKU ever, but I'm almost at loss for what to think about them because they're so mysterious. I'll try, though.

I really never saw the swords of hatred as being directed toward the prince at all, only the rose bride. The swords of hatred represent the people's... well, hatred out of fear, but in an almost misogynistic way their hatred is only directed at Anthy, the hated witch who dared to take the prince away from all of the other girls who aren't witches, but submissive princesses who needed to be saved. One way I view a modern-day witch myself (as I kind of am one) is self-empowerment, and a witch is often seen as a role of feminine power. In society there is still that stigma of the much-hated witch who is a hag and casts curses and is cast in the darkness and judged as a villain because her self-empowerment is feared and resented. That is how the townspeople are judging Anthy. She took action into her own hands and chose to save the prince herself, taking on a role of power for a woman. The "witch" accusations fit with this because the townspeople hate and fear what she is doing and isolate her from "normal" girls by labeling her as the villain/witch.

Another thing I've noticed is that in the very beginning of the series there are two or three different scenes where something happens to Touga, Saionji, or Miki and Nanami's henchwoman (before they are her henchwoman I guess) all gang up on Anthy at various points and blame it all on her. To me this was like forshadowing of the swords of hatred, or some kind of reality/less symbolic version of it in a way. They were being hateful toward Anthy for basically taking away their "princes." Every single time Anthy was seen as the one to blame even though by appearance alone she would just seem like a quiet shy girl who didn't deserve that kind of treatment. It is as if all/most of the girls (princesses) have some kind of internal hatred/fear toward Anthy because they know what she has done.

I'm sure there are other views of the swords of hatred, but that was just one way I saw it.

I'm sorry if that was a little muddled. I really need to do a rewatch soon too. (:

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (01-05-2009 11:37:09 PM)

One thing about the swords concerns me. Akio seemed to know, what is going to happen if Utena will open the Rose Gate without the use of Prince's sword. Does that mean that the existence of the swords was useful for him for some reasons I can't see?

what if it was Dios' fear instead?

Hadn't thought of this, but it makes incredible sense! I was wondering why a creature as old & crafty as Akio himself would allow herself to be repeatedly mutilated. She's been in the game as long as Akio. She realizes she's a pivot point around which the whole scheme swings. How does she not realize that the swords were never really intended for him, but always for her, and why does she continue to play the game? Guilt perhaps?

Her actions of "sealing him away" was something more than he was capable of then. It would give Dios reason to fear her. Anthy would probably feel guilty that the noble prince Dios has devolved into Akio a rather sham of a prince. Akio would have similar reasons to fear her. She's a powerful player & he needs to have bait each time the game starts afresh.

Could this [Dios/Akio's fear] possibly be a reason the swords turned against Utena after she opened the coffin?

Just a passing thought... I don't know if the influence of Kanashimi no Belladonna on Utena has ever been discussed here. When I rewatched the SKU finale after seeing KnB (if you're not familiar with it, here's the trailer and a rather disjointed review I did), I couldn't help but see the parallels between Jeanne and Anthy.

Warning: spoilers for Kanashimi no Belladonna, aka Belladonna of sadness.

Both diverted the rage of an angry mob on themselves to save the man they loved; both were in some sort of power struggle with an evil overlord (although the Count in KnB is a more straightforward kind of villain than subtle, scheming Akio) who lusts after them and abuses them; both were witches and therefore loved and feared at the same time.

(ETA: I also find it very Anthy-like that Jeanne, when selling her soul to become a witch, expresses the desire to "do bad things". Which is kinda puzzling as there's nothing really *bad* in what she does after the transformation - although being subversive re: the current morality can be seen as "bad" - but I also see it as her will to embrace all sides of her human nature, which is what Anthy does eventually.)

If we see Anthy through the Belladonna POV, her taking the swords is like Jeanne's gang rape scene: she's the archetype of all those who are oppressed, abused by the established power, and used as a scapegoat especially because they have the potential to subvert the status quo. KnB is a 70s film with strong overtones about feminism and the sexual revolution of the time, so it's mainly about subverting patriarchy and sexual taboos; SKU takes it to a broader meaning - "revolutionize the world" might mean something different to each person.

So what are the swords? I think I fall in some middle ground among the previous posts; the swords embody fear and hatred of the world, but at the same time, they are also Akio's way to keep some... balance in the Force, so to speak. When Anthy gets rid of the swords thanks to Utena, and she goes in the outside world basically saying "I'm not taking this shit anymore, kthnxbai", Akio doesn't die or disappear - but he's been kicked off his throne. So yeah, they are his own fear of losing control over Anthy (whom eventually, like Jeanne, has the *real* spiritual power opposed to material power), and probably also Dios' fear. I agree with Giovanna that Anthy's ultimate act of love, willingly sacrificing herself in his place, probably scared him more than anything else. I mean, even Harry Potter was rather anvilicious on the "sacrificing for love is the strongest kind of spell" theme! In a way, that act made Anthy the "real" prince in that situation, and that might have felt... threatening. Mmmh, now I'm going to say something obvious, but perhaps Akio was born exactly because Dios' nature couldn't handle such an unprincely feeling.

Aaaand I'm not sure any of this makes sense but it's almost two AM... and it shows, lol.

Last edited by pojypojy (01-06-2009 06:59:35 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

Actually I always assumed he thought that if Anthy was released, the swords would go after him.

Hmm, the swords do whirl around destructively a lot before actually focusing on Utena.  Maybe the reason they don't focus on Akio is that he, er, had gotten the fuck out of there by then?  I mean, we don't see him anywhere in those shots near the end, do we?

hollow_rose wrote:

I always wonder why the swords don't head for Akio, since he's standing there with the sword of Dios. Aren't the swords supposed to aim for the Prince, and Anthy took them in his stead? Do they seek to punish the witch for locking the prince away? Or do they head towards the Prince first? Why do they go towards Utena in the end? Does that mean she has become the Witch (to save Anthy from that fate) or do the swords flock to her because she is the new Prince?  The ending brings up all sorts of fun interpretations.

Actually, it's Anthy who has the sword of Dios. She takes the swords of hate by drawing them with that. Meanwhile Akio is using Utena's soul sword on the gate, until it breaks. The swords stop when the gate transforms into Anthy's coffin but they stay in place and don't reorient on anything. When the coffin is opened a little the swords break away from where Anthy was, the sword of Dios doesn't appear there, though it's hard to pick one sword out from several. The swords get annoyed while Utena and Anthy have their moment, but it's not until Anthy falls that they focus on Utena. And the stairs. And the couches. And the projector. Just about anywhere, really.

My thoughts on that would be the sword of Dios draws the swords in, when Anthy's coffin is opened she ceases to be punished for sealing Dios away and ceases to contain the power of Dios within herself. This itself causes Anthy and her coffin to plunge away, they no longer have any support on their own to stay floating against reality. Utena in that moment becomes (as close to being) a prince (as possible) within the nature of the show or in the estimate of the swords. So they go for her first and, unsatisfied (either with an uneternal target or one that slips away) they wreck up the place. And then where do they go?

... this is all kind of offtopic, isn't it? I'll try better later.

OnionPrince wrote:

Let's consider exactly what the Swords of Hate do for a moment. Akio implies that the swords would go after him without the Rose Bride to be his meat-shield. But they don't; the swords instead went after Utena who was trying to save Anthy. Not a single stray blade of that million pays Akio any mind, in fact. I previously thought the main point of this was that Utena was more of a prince than Akio in the end, but maybe there's more to it.

I agree with you. I remember the scene where Utena in pink dress is pointing a sword at Akio - this was the gesture that determined her as a prince. She was a defender, she was an essence of prince-like devotion. I presume Utena's behaviour turned Anthy into princess - her dress at the end of the series suits a real lady.

(I'm trippy, hopefully this will be in complete sentences. )

I assumed the same about how they'd go after Akio if Anthy was gone.


When they first showed up, swords in hand, their original reasoning was the prince wasn't doing enough for their sorry asses, and someone needed to do something for it. Anthy went and told them no, standing between them and Dios, where Akio is more than happy to try and stay, but still tried to be a prince anyway to open the gate, while hiding behind a little girl.  As long as Anthy was defiant to them, they'd go after her.

When Utena came, and Anthy decided to take her hand, she stopped being in the way, and Akio stopped being the prince, as Utena saved her, and they went after her instead, since Akio was clearly not a prince. Cause really, Akio has no excuse to not save Anthy, except being a sissy. It sounded kinda like it was some weird incest thing they way they talked about in it play and such, but seriously, I don't think that would bother either of them. They clearly have NO problem with the act, nor what people think, I'm pretty sure he's just hiding. While Utena's being a girl to save the princess is probably still seen as bad, being both the unacceptable gender thing, and being gay, she still wasn't afraid of it, and did it, making her able to be the prince where Akio couldn't.

Ragnarok wrote:

My thoughts on that would be the sword of Dios draws the swords in, when Anthy's coffin is opened she ceases to be punished for sealing Dios away and ceases to contain the power of Dios within herself. This itself causes Anthy and her coffin to plunge away, they no longer have any support on their own to stay floating against reality. Utena in that moment becomes (as close to being) a prince (as possible) within the nature of the show or in the estimate of the swords. So they go for her first and, unsatisfied (either with an uneternal target or one that slips away) they wreck up the place. And then where do they go?

... this is all kind of offtopic, isn't it? I'll try better later.

After rewatching the episode, I think this is the theory that rings truer to me, as long as factual interpretation goes. Besides, I tend to think that the swords were never after Akio - because the moment he became Akio, he couldn't possibly be the prince at the same time. After all, Akio is Dios without his prince-ness, embodied by the sword (and I think Anthy was able to be the keeper of the sword because, no matter her later corruption that sort of went along with Akio's, she was capable of an act of selflessness that he couldn't do).

And a not totally related question on chronology, but I don't feel like opening a new topic just for that... When Utena has that flashback/dream of Dios in the coffin scene, and Dios shows her a younger Anthy already attacked by the swords - shouldn't that mean the "Dios" Utena remembers is indeed Akio? Stupid question, I know, but I wanted to make that clear ;;

I really do have a lot to say about the swords, but I don't have much time at the moment.

Regarding the flashback to Utena's childhood, I think it's important to remember Utena's reason for hiding.

girl:  My father and mother died today.
girl:  And there was one coffin left over.
girl:  It must have been meant for me.
girl:  Being alive is kind of sickening.
girl:  It's sickening...
girl:  Why does everyone go on living knowing they'll end up dying anyway?
girl:  I wonder why I never realized that until today.
girl:  Eternity couldn't possibly exist, could it?
girl:  And so, it's all right now.
girl:  I will never leave this coffin.
Saionji:  But someone will find you, eventually.
girl:  Then I'll just go hide in another coffin.
girl:  I'll never see anyone, or come out into the sun again.
Saionji:  Wait! Don't you think she might do something stupid if we leave her like that?
Touga:  Then, why don't you show her something eternal?

Yes, she was grieving because her parents died and the third coffin was an ominous sign.  But the death of Utena's parents taught her the lesson that nothing is eternal.  So it's not only the death of her parents, but also the knowledge that everyone dies that makes Utena deny the value of life.

When "The Prince" comes to Utena and speaks to her about Anthy, well...  I know some people think that Akio orchestrated Utena's parents' death to groom her for the duels.  It's not terribly unlikely that he and Anthy changed their ages to stage that scene for Utena's benefit.

But that is not my opinion.  I don't know why I feel so certain that what Utena saw was genuine--it simply fits with my interpretation of the series.  Utena's despair at that time was a beacon that caught Dios/Akio's attention.  Then Utena was taken into a place beyond time and shown something eternal...eternal and twisted.  Utena was shown one of the truths that lie underneath the outward appearances of Akio and Anthy. 

However they looked on campus at that time, whether they deliberately took on the appearance of their younger selves (or whether that was truly how they still saw themselves in their minds)...I think the words the Prince spoke and the vision itself were honest.   Even if you don't share my sentiment about Utena being shown an "eternal moment", you can also think of it this way: why manipulate with lies when you can manipulate with the truth?

Was it Akio?  Akio as we know him in the series?  *shrug*  No idea.  But it definitely wasn't Dios.  First of all, "When [Anthy] became known as a witch, Dios perished."  Second of all, that "prince" won't even try to save Anthy.  He may know better, but Dios wasn't a pragmatic individual and so it's uncharacteristic behavior for Dios.  But was it Akio?  Why not show his "real" age?--Akio in his fancy-dress is certainly a princely enough figure.  It's been said that a younger person would appeal to Utena more and could have been a deliberate manipulative choice (though the young Touga didn't appeal to her too terribly much).  But the age of the prince in that scene changes, up and down, and neither his bearing nor his words fully sound like Akio either.

I'm sure the difficulty of pinning "who" down with certainty is deliberate.  Utena can't ever really be sure whether the prince that saved her was Dios or Akio, either.  (What matters is what she wrought with the courage he inspired.)

For some reason the Dios/Akio disconituity doesn't bother me very much. It makes some psychological sense. Don't we sometimes hear the voice of the child we once were scolding us for not living up to some ideal or perhaps praising us for becoming what that child wanted? The Dios that Akio once was would not accept what has become of them and would try to change things if possible. On some level Akio may be subverting himself. And perhaps the Dios who guides Utena to Anthy's prison is the real Dios, the one who sees the mistakes he made as both persons.

Hiraku asked:
Back to Swords of Hatred for a minute, Anthy has the Power of Dios, but after that has already been pulled out, there's another black one that Akio pulled out of her chest. That's a random Sword of Hatred that Akio pulled out, right? Considering that since Anthy is already being skewered and such by so many. Using a Sword of Hatred to fight against Utena's Dios Sword, though, is it really befitting for Akio to just use a random sword, or was that an emblem of anger and hate belonging to Akio and Akio alone that he, too, has expressed against Anthy?

No, Utena was fighting with her own soul- sword, while Akio was (probably) fighting with his very own, now useless Sword of Dios, which was in Anthy the whole time in that episode until the start of the duel.

But really, I think the Dios Utena sees in the end is kinda like a part of Akio's old self that still remains somehow visible, but only in Ohtori. There is no reason to think Dios is actually out doing things against Akio's plan, Utena's winning streak is in the interest of both Dios and Akio.

Last edited by P.D.M. (01-10-2009 03:24:44 AM)