I read that earlier this morning! Really cool article.

Wow! How cool is this?!

Congrats on the article, it was truly excellent. A perfect overview and retrospective on Utena and how its fandom has changed over the years. Like Bad Bug, I don't bother with ANN much anymore. I used to visit regularly, until I realized that a lot of the site's content is middle-aged men complaining that anime isn't as manly as it used to be. Imagine my surprise when I trip over the tab I still keep open of it and find that article. Anyway, good work, and thank you for your insights.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 12:00:25 AM)

I'd rather not, as this isn't the place for it. I will say that several prominent members of the editorial staff are vocal about their preference for the rougher, edgier pre-millenial anime they were raised on - and for condemning anything with too much moe as garbage, especially in their seasonal "preview guides". I remember in particular how Madoka Magica was described initially as "cutesy-poo" tripe and dismissed, only for the tune to change later once Madoka's dark themes were made blatant. The situation is the same a lot of times on the ANNCast, with endless repetitive grumbling about how terrible anime is today and how much better it was in the Gundam/Cowboy Bebop/Evangelion past.

If that's not your perception that's fine, but it is mine.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 01:22:09 AM)

Aelanie, I have to admit I'm one of those crabby asshole people that misses the good old days so you just described me, haha.

Don't mistake me, I'm also of that same generation, and I actually agree that - in some ways - anime today can be too unambitious, too commercial, and so on. But that is far from being the whole story about how anime has changed over the years, and in any case, you and I don't spend time and effort endlessly repackaging those parade-raining feelings into monetized "content".

As for Utena and Anthy representing you, it's not as though they can carry the torch for all women-loving women. My best friend, also a lesbian, doesn't even like Utena (the franchise) at all, though she has watched it with me and has been familiar with it for many years. For her, the primeval yuri couple to which she eternally returns is Chikane and Himeko from Kannazuki no Miko. For many other women, it's Haruka and Michiru in Sailor Moon. Everybody has the characters that speak to them most.

Your disregard of Juri is heresy though.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 01:47:23 AM)

We need more statistical abnormalities and just plain weirdoes like you Gio. Otherwise the fandom isn't any fun.

And goodness knows that RGU itself isn't normal.

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 01:59:39 AM)

Aelanie wrote:

You're not alone. There are in fact a significant number of lesbian women who identify strongly with yaoi, due to it being less concerned with stereotypical female gender role/presentation depictions, and in fact some are known yaoi manga artists. My best friend is also a fan of yaoi as well, though yuri is still her chief interest.

That, and also I think they suffer from a bit of internalised homophobia (Hear me out).

Lesbian yaoi fans, or "Yaoisbians" for short,  want to see gay representation but they don't want to see themselves in it per say. They wanna see gay characters being overtly gay and in love, but don't want to face their own gayness (which itself they find abhorrent).

I say this because as a Gay guy I gravitate to f/f ships but not so much m/m ships since I might identify with them too much. I see myself in their shoes doing the same stupid mistakes as a gay guy that I did (E.g. falling for a straight guy). I want representation and be able to relate to characters on things, but in a controlled way. Not in a way that it's so eerily similar to my life and the times I've really effed it up.

I really hope I'm not projecting or anything and apologises in advance if this doesn't makes senes....Lol.

EDIT: Also I think it should be pointed out that Japanese gay men (and I suppose mainstream macho gay culture) aren't very interested in yaoi...at all. They tend to gravitate to Bara.

And hey, while we're on the topic of alternative but strangely popular outlets for LGBT, aside from the established mainstream, then I've heard that the furry community is one such outlet. Here's a little essay on the matter: http://spacetwinks.tumblr.com/post/1392 … -in-a-mean

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 03:17:32 AM)

Giovanna wrote:

It kind of makes me laugh to think EM has some sort of high status in the fandom, or any status at all, given that outside practical resources and the analysis section, the content is pretty militantly shit at being representative of the fanbase. There's an Akio shrine, and for two married women, Yasha and I suck at feeling like Utena and or Anthy relate to us at all. I've learned to accept that despite being a 'superfan' (don't worry it isn't going to my head!) I'm on the whole a terrible flagbearer for the community at large, and always have been. I wonder if the fandom at large wouldn't have preferred Empty Movement be run by an Utena fan, or a Juri fan, when statistically the odds favored them.

Aelanie, I have to admit I'm one of those crabby asshole people that misses the good old days so you just described me, haha.

Not to sound sycophantic, but this forum is honestly great! Having a more practical site as a base for a fandom allows for a greater range of options for others to expand on, and play with. Sort of a neutral zone if you would, even if explaining it might get a bit more complicated and show off some contradictions. It's acted as a hub for a bunch of great things, like several translation projects, a ton of great analytical threads, and not to mention the wealth of info you guys managed to gather on the main site.
And this is coming from one of those "danged kids" themselves. Tumblr has the benefit of having live-reactions in a mesh of information which does help with getting a overview of a zeitgeist, but it does end up getting a bit... clique-y at times. Ever since I was little, I've never really gotten comfortable enough to engage deeply within fandom other than being an observer, even when I was obsessed with something. Even if this wasn't the first series-specfic forum I've been a part of, I'm proud to say it's been a blast to be a part of. And honestly, I lean more towards being a Nanami fan myself if anything if it makes you feel a bit better.

So in conclusion, congrats on the article! Here's to another twenty plus years!

What is and is not moe, and exactly what that term means, is a perennial and heated debate, so I won't get into that here. But I use it in the sense of "characters being presented in a way that makes them endearing to the audience". Sailor Moon certainly has moe elements in its moments where the characters are explored and their personalities come out in ways that make us like the characters more, care about them more. This does not have to include fetishization , nor are "middle-aged men" the only ones who enjoy likable and cute characters, needless to say. You are using the term in a more narrow and stereotypical sense than I am.

Aelanie wrote:

lesbian women

But I'm bisexual! The degree to which that changes everything about how I engage or don't with LGBTQ content can't be overstated. Also I don't read Touga and Saionji as a yaoi pairing. Honestly, my interpretation of the show confirms three LGBTQ relationships explicitly: Akio/Touga, Mikage/Mamiya, and Juri/Her Crushed Dreams. Juri's solitude is used to safely dodge having to actually depict the relationship, and the other two are...not very flattering endorsements of male sexuality there, Ikuhara.

Aelanie wrote:

The real issue, of course, is that you simply haven't consumed enough yuri yet. Please report to this thread for re-education.

I'll likely regret saying this, and I hope it's evident that I don't mean to be insulting...but I personally just can't do yuri. Or yaoi. I've never been motivated to engage in a piece of media primarily because of the LGBTQ status of its characters, and yuri and yaoi presence has never made me care more about a story. Maybe because I'm bisexual, but I often find yuri and yaoi represent me a lot less than most straight representations of relationships and sex do, in part because I'm being told it represents me and I feel like that robs me of agency in the matter. I've asked myself if this is internalized homophobic behavior, as I agree with Saigon that it certainly can be... but I don't think so. I don't seem to have any reaction, positive or negative, to lesbian or homosexual depictions that I don't have equally to heterosexual ones. I don't seem to really care.

I did look at the thread though! I honestly haven't seen more than a few episodes of any one of these, my biggest effort being biting into Simoun. It's terrible to judge based on something you didn't finish, but there it is--they felt very manipulative on the point that they're yuri, which is the goal obviously, but as a genre that wasn't engaging me long enough to see them pass through their reliance on that. The same thing keeps me away from most mecha anime, in that mecha being present doesn't establish a baseline interest, so it's nothing against yuri that I don't hold against several other genres of things. But unless I missed them, Rose of Versailles and Brother, Dear Brother aren't there? Are they not considered yuri anime? Because those were going to be my counter-argument to my own very pigheaded asshole-sounding opinion here.

I'm pretty sure as a rule you and I have totally opposing interests in everything outside SKU, though. Your description of Shitsurakuen in the thread piqued my interest when uh, you plainly meant the description to be a deterrent. Fucked up depictions of unhealthy sexuality and gender dynamics? If that's a genre, it's definitely my favorite. But that thing sounds like an insulting or amazing degree of SKU ripoff...

malna wrote:

I wouldn't be able to put my finger on it but I do feel that, despite all differences, there is something unique and specific about people that loiter around here. Something that makes me feel comfortable and at ease, and that's rare for me.

I think some of it is that a lot of us have been here long enough to have gotten into all the SKU arguments? It's like a huge messed up mass marriage. Also forums are a very different format for social media, in that they often depart quickly from the idea of an original poster and don't encourage brevity. You can be as verbose as you like and will probably be rewarded for it!

zeedikay wrote:

Tumblr has the benefit of having live-reactions in a mesh of information which does help with getting a overview of a zeitgeist, but it does end up getting a bit... clique-y at times.

That's definitely a big factor. The forum is frankly a smaller population too, so there's an intimacy in play and probably not enough critical mass for cliques, per say. Although there were once! It was broken down more into character preference, though...Tumblr seems to break down cliques based on degrees and forms of social justice interpretations of the story.

zeedikay wrote:

And honestly, I lean more towards being a Nanami fan myself if anything if it makes you feel a bit better.

what Nanami owns! Every subsequent viewing makes me like her more and more. She's a deeply flawed fool of a girl with insight dangerous enough that she tries to bury it. I can relate to wanting blur your own vision to prevent having to deal with what you see. Like her brother, she's insightful enough to direct others to do her bidding, but the ease with which this happens is kind of disappointing in and of itself. She won't stand to lose her goon squad, but there's definitely a part of her that's isolated by her intelligence and resents even her 'friends' for that.

With regard to Simoun...listen. The concept that "you have to finish it to really understand/appreciate it" is overapplied on a lot of media. In many cases, and very often with anime, that is not the case. I don't make a habit of saying that about anything.

But Simoun is such a case. Simoun, more than possibly any anime I've ever seen, is a carefully plotted build-up to the release of its full power and meaning in the finale. Everything that happens, everything that the characters feel and experience, leads into the final episode, "Kanojo-tachi no Shouzou", The Portrait of Those Girls.

And you will find what you are looking for in Simoun. It is rife with characters struggling with uncomfortable relationships and their gender identities. I dearly hope one day you will see it through.

(You will not find what you are looking for, or anything of value whatsoever, in Shitsurakuen. Please don't mistake my description as implying it has any form of depth, complexity or nuance. It is pure garbage with no self-awareness about what it is presenting, and presenting badly at that. Nevermind the content, even the narrative mechanics of the manga are horrendous. It is, simply, a thing that should never have existed.)

Anyway, it sounds like a standard case of Hype Aversion. As a contrarian, I also suffer from this. The assertions that "this is amazing,  it'll totally speak to you/you'll relate to it/etc." create a negative feeling that causes us to be less inclined to partake of that thing. But I will also be the first to admit, that sometimes this can cause you to miss out on stuff that really is great and enjoyable. The only way to really know is just to dive in.

Rose of Versailles I do not call yuri, though certainly an important and influential precursor. Onii-sama e is...a complicated and mixed-results work that is its own unique thing, one that I would be hesitant to recommend to anyone without intimate knowledge of their preferences.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-16-2017 06:45:13 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

I'll likely regret saying this, and I hope it's evident that I don't mean to be insulting...but I personally just can't do yuri. Or yaoi. I've never been motivated to engage in a piece of media primarily because of the LGBTQ status of its characters, and yuri and yaoi presence has never made me care more about a story. Maybe because I'm bisexual, but I often find yuri and yaoi represent me a lot less than most straight representations of relationships and sex do, in part because I'm being told it represents me and I feel like that robs me of agency in the matter. I've asked myself if this is internalized homophobic behavior, as I agree with Saigon that it certainly can be... but I don't think so. I don't seem to have any reaction, positive or negative, to lesbian or homosexual depictions that I don't have equally to heterosexual ones. I don't seem to really care.

Aelanie's only giving you a nudge but honestly, you do you. There's no right or wrong way to be LGBT, so long as you're not hurting anyone in the process.

And yknow, to be perfectly fair with you, yaoi and yuri are awful outlets for LGBT. Maybe once upon a time they made for good representation, like the classics Aelanie mentioned, but nowadays they're...how should I put it...gratuitous and fetishistic? They're written for the horny heterosexual gaze in mind.

Which is why I consider shows like Yuri!!! on Ice which feature healthy M/M relationships as not being yaoi, really, since it's so divorced from the usual yaoi tropes.

purplepolecat wrote:

Zac Bertschy, the executive editor of ANN, recently married his long time partner and co-worker Jacob, a trans man who came out about a year ago. Both of them are big SKU fans and talk it up at every opportunity. (I'm not saying these things are connected, but it's interesting.)

I don't agree with all the opinions expressed on ANN, but their coverage of the new anime streaming firehose is a very useful resource.

D'awwww

I admit, ANN was kind of just there for me. It existed as a place for general Anime discussion but didn't catch me as the place where better and more in depth discussions could be found. It was your typical casual anime fan hangout.  I could be wrong though.

Last edited by SaigonAlice (02-16-2017 07:25:07 PM)