I couldn't be bothered reading through this thread, so someone might of raised what I'm saying now Xp... but I think the Clay sculptures are Haniwa (Child-like appearance but were used as funerary objects for Military leaders, horses, etc... way back in the Kofun period 250-538)

I also think the Umbrella symbolists how Keiko kept her feelings for Touga sheltered. Sheltering herself from her desire and Nanami.

I'm pretty upset, I went to see the Utena Symbolism site and seems like it was discontinued. It was a really nice resource

YamPuff wrote:

I caught it during my rewatch. *proud* 

And in the next shot of the, er, phallic symbol, the shadow falls between Scorpio and Libra.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … tled-1.jpg

...does anyone know what this dial actually is? i.e. does it exist in real life in any form? I mean, its form resembles a sundial to my mind, but it's using the constellations, which I assume makes it something that you would use to predict the movement of the constellations...and as you guys are saying, different signs in different sectors imply different emotions and states of mind. I'm just bloody curious about whether or not it's a genuine astrology/astronomy tool or not now, because if you need the night sky to view it then it's going to be the wackiest thing ever given you'd need the moonlight to cast the shadow and the moon is about as fickle as anything. How does Juliet put it? "O, swear not by the moon, the inconstant moon/That monthly changes in her circled orb/Lest that thy love prove likewise variable."

...hmm. That was a random thought process on my part, actually, but it seems to fit rather nicely with Saionji's declaration to Anthy, or even vice-versa...considering the fact that Anthy is like the moon, changing depending on who she orbits. Dammit, that's it, my brain hurts, I'm not thinking about this anymore...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing.

YamPuff wrote:

Clarice wrote:

...although I would still like to know if anyone knows WHAT that wheel is actually supposed to be doing.

Its for messin wit you miiind.

...I thought that was Akio's...erm..."projector" in his "tower." Or maybe that's not for my mind...

Well, Libra is more of a love sign, as opposed to Scorpio the sex sign.  Libra is ruled by Venus, while Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, but formerly ruled by Mars in the old six planet system. Also, Scorpio is seen as a symbol of mystery and magic, which is how modern astrologers assigned Pluto to it. Libra however is very light and, to hijack Clarice's wording, fickle, much like love.

Clarice wrote:

...does anyone know what this dial actually is? i.e. does it exist in real life in any form?

No, it's just a symbol or metaphor for us viewers, not something that could exist in real life and work in that fashion.

Last edited by brian (03-18-2007 01:57:34 PM)

Hiraku wrote:

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Well, Libra is more of a love sign, as opposed to Scorpio the sex sign.  Libra is ruled by Venus, while Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, but formerly ruled by Mars in the old six planet system. Also, Scorpio is seen as a symbol of mystery and magic, which is how modern astrologers assigned Pluto to it. Libra however is very light and, to hijack Clarice's wording, fickle, much like love.

I thought Venus rules Pisces.

Nope, that's Neptune, Jupiter in the old system.

brian wrote:

Don't know if this was noticed by anyone before, but Miki seems to use his stopwatch as a divination tool. For example he consults his watch to conclude that he was responsible for the exploding curry incident. Using a stopwatch as a crystal ball is absurd but in a sense modern politician consult pollsters and economists and scientists the way kings used to consult astrologers.

Wow, maybe THAT'S what Ikuhara was saying when he said that Miki's stopwatch holds the secret to the universe.

That bow is interesting.

Anyway I've got a question. I rarely pay attention to Chu-chu but in Episode 15 Saioinji has just seen the world, he marches into the bird cage, hits Miki, grabs Anthy and challenges Utena. Just before that Chu-chu is getting buggered by a frog. Saionji grabs them both and hurls them away. Obviously the frog is a fake prince but I don't understand the rest of the symbolism.

Last edited by brian (03-22-2007 05:13:34 PM)

Fayli wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

Now for more YamPuff noticing irrelevant things!!

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/ … /Kozue.jpg

When Miki flashbacks about himself and his sister, Kozua has pretty curly hair, a fancy dress and a big bow. However, when Kozue flashbacks, her hairstyle is exactly the same as her current self, and no bow in sight.

How perfectly fitting is that? Brilliant.

I think that's because Miki remembers those days fondly, more or less idolizing Kozua. Where as Kozua only associates the pain of Miki letting her down. When Miki flashbacks, Kozua is different from how she is now, as he remembers her differently than the Kozua she is in the present. Kozua sees herself as being still dependent on Miki and therefore she looks the same in the past and present as she can't move on.

I think that maid sense

Oh wow, I didn't realize that the hair was different.
Oh maybe this just shows that Miki's deluding himself by "manipulating" his memories as he's looking through a pair of rosy-colored glasses.
When I looked at that pic YamPuff posted (Thank you ) I also noticed that the Kozue in Miki's flashback has curly hair, so maybe it has something to do with his visions of Anthy, too. Kinda like how he pictured his new stepmom to be like Anthy.

I can't believe I read all through this topic in one night. Does anyone have a life I could borrow?

ANYWAY.

Something I noted a while back, not sure if it's technically symbolism but what the heck...

In the episode 'Her Tragedy' there's a bit of a repeating theme of a deadpan joke.

The first time we hear it is with Touga:

Nanami:  Where're you going?
Touga:  The shower. Wanna come with me?
*pause*
Touga:  Just kidding.

And again:

Touga:  You...don't seem to have any fever.
Nanami:  Cut it out. I'm not a child.
Touga:  Sorry about that. Then, a kiss goodnight? (Nanami turns a brilliant shade of red)
*pause*
Touga:  Just kidding.

Later on we hear it from Akio:

Akio:  That's fine. Making sure that each an every student has a pleasant time at the Academy is my job.
Nanami:  Aren't you going to ask what happened?
Akio:  My real dream is turning the Chairman's Wing into a harem.
*pause*
Nanami:  Huh?
Akio:  Just kidding.

And almost immediately after we hear it from Anthy:

Utena:  Is Akio-san trying to found a harem or something? Taking Nanami in and all...
Anthy:  Well, my brother draws no distinction between women.
*pause* (Utena remembers her kiss in Akio's car)
Utena:  Is that true?
Anthy:  I'm joking.

This little running joke is in fact, IMHO, displaying the chain of command. When Touga uses the joke he is heavy-handed and laden with sexual innuendo, and he uses it twice. When Akio uses the joke he is lighter and more subtle. Finally, when Anthy makes the joke, she doesn't even initiate the gag, she just says the punchline - and her words are so true that even the naive Utena believes her for a moment.

I think the joke is one of the best illustrators of Anthy's skill in subtlety, and how everything in the show doesn't come back to just Akio's plots, it comes back to hers. Despite Akio's overt displays of power, she's the one really in control... I think. Which is really an essay in itself.

Oh, and first post. Yayz.

[edit] Also, I believe there are a few roses spinning in corners during the times that the deadpan jokes are told, as well as the image of a toad eating a fly and the sound of a ribbit when Nanami hears the joke from Touga. Does anyone have screencaps?

Last edited by relmneiko (03-23-2007 05:07:16 AM)

@ relmneiko: I've noticed those jokes too but I couldn't make anything more meaningful out of them. But I think they also show how naive both Nanami and Utena really are. Of course, Nanami's the one to get over it soon after that but I think they're both (especially Utena) quite gullible characters anyway.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Last edited by Maarika (03-23-2007 07:26:47 AM)

Hina, that is pretty rude. Also, It should be fairly easy to tell whose flashback it is-- perhaps you could explain why you think this is not Kozue's flashback?

I see. I'm sorry, I did the opposite of you. I know episode 15 like the back of my hand, and I knew her hair was curly in it. I suppose since there was a screencap with her normal hair, I just assumed that Miki must have had that flashback. To be fair though, I said 'if you'll check episode 15', not 'if you'll check [insert another Miki/Kozue centric episode]'. But I understand what you did. I should have checked first.