There are people here who can -- and will -- articulate their thoughts on this a lot better than I could, but my view on it is this: they likely as not didn't have what I would classify a "sexual" relationship as children. But there was probably some undertone of sexual experimentation there. Which is to say, "you show me yours, I'll show you mine." I don't see anything sinister in that whatsoever. The element of sexuality in their relationship as teenagers is due to what is probably the "modern" distortion of what does and doesn't constitute intimacy in a relationship. As children, Miki and Kozue were always together, or so it's implied. They contrasted and completed each other. This isn't so as they've grown older. Now, an overall theme of the series is that sexuality is part of an "adult" relationship, and is a way of forging intimacy with another person (we see this again and again in the relationships of all characters). When one person cannot provide this intimacy for another person, it is often implied that they feel they are replaced by another person who can -- take Nemuro and Tokiko as another example, or the Shiori/Juri/nameless boy triangle (you could do this with Ruka also), or the Touga/Nanami dynamic. Kozue is in a similar situation with Miki -- she's in an adult world and thinks the only way she can keep and maintain Miki is to be his everything. And that includes the role of lover. She flaunts her sexuality even as he represses his, and she resents him for it. Whether or not this means there was some element of this same behaviour as children is entirely conjecture, and we're given no evidence of it in the series. Although we're also given no evidence to the contrary, and that's where the fun really starts.

I apologise if this makes no sense, it's getting late and my brain died about three hours ago.

Obviously that's just my own interpretation, but I do like the conclusion that Kozue is the least into her brother despite being the most visibly sexual of Ohtori Academy's noteworthy girls-with-brothers.

I definitely disagree. Where Nanami's sexual attraction to Touga is often confused with her genuine affection, I see Kozue's dynamic with Miki as motivated almost exclusively by sexuality. The Black Rose arc brings out the darkness concealed in its victims. Although some of the characters act in ways we don't see in the rest of the series, it reveals their inner drives. Under Mikage's influence, Kozue tries to kiss Miki before drawing out his sword. Earlier than that, she caresses Miki's and seems to be leaning for an embrace while he sleeps. She almost severely injures someone who shows sexual interest in him. She has sex with people in his "sacred places", targets girls who specifically capture his attention, and is deeply jealous of Anthy.

In Miki's second duel, she targets his sexuality again. Recall that scene where she's leaning back in Akio's seat, with her blouse unbuttoned and skirt floating up, making her bedroom eyes at Miki. She distracts his attention by apparently molesting the object of his desires.

Given all this, it's hard to believe that they didn't have a sexual relationship at some point. How did Kozue develop her psychosexual obsession, if not? She's eerily skilled and knowledgable for a thirteen year old girl, after all. Furthermore, she adeptly uses sex as her tool and weapon, especially against her brother.

Besides, it's SKU, and their mutual idealized memories have to hint at something a bit creepier going on. So yes. I definitely feel that if they didn't actually have a sexual relationship, there's at least the desire to have one on Kozue's half. At the very least, their relationship isn't "innocent."

Katzenklavier wrote:

In Miki's second duel, she targets his sexuality again. Recall that scene where she's leaning back in Akio's seat, with her blouse unbuttoned and skirt floating up, making her bedroom eyes at Miki. She distracts his attention by apparently molesting the object of his desires.

I always thought this was weird.  Wouldn't anybody be distracted if they saw their (straight?) sister leaning over to kiss another girl, regardless of whether or not they were attracted to the girl being kissed?

While Kozue shows signs of being perhaps molested as a child, I don't really think Miki shows any indication that he's sexually experienced.  The awkwardness of their relationship seems more based on how Miki reacts to Kozue's overtly sexual behavior rather than any sexual urges he has towards her.

phul wrote:

Katzenklavier wrote:

In Miki's second duel, she targets his sexuality again. Recall that scene where she's leaning back in Akio's seat, with her blouse unbuttoned and skirt floating up, making her bedroom eyes at Miki. She distracts his attention by apparently molesting the object of his desires.

I always thought this was weird.  Wouldn't anybody be distracted if they saw their (straight?) sister leaning over to kiss another girl, regardless of whether or not they were attracted to the girl being kissed?

Phul's argument here is also the one I would make.  I got the impression more that he was distracted thinking, "Wait, what the fuck is she trying over there?" than anything else.  I mean, wouldn't it distract you?

Just thought I'd weigh in here. While I don't think there is any actual text in the show that Miki and Kozue have had sex in the past, the subtext supporting that Kozue at least sexualizes their relationship is pretty strong. For one thing, Kozue doesn't seem to know how else to relate to people. You ever notice how if she's not trying to have sex with someone she's pretty cold? Also, all of Katz's points are well put.

What troubles me about Miki's second duel is Kozue's motivation. Why would she want Miki to lose? And yet it seems that she was trying to screw him up, taunting him...is it possible that she was actually after Anthy's power herself and saw an easier way to get to it? Or that she was simply trying to turn Miki on, to see her as more of a sexual object? Because if her intent was just to screw him up, why did she call him a coward later? That's the one and only moment in the show where she shows any overt hostility toward Miki.

I must say I tend to find the theory that Kozue was sexually abused as a child (and considering her age, last week would qualify, so it doesn't really need to be all that long ago) the most fitting.  Hypersexuality such as hers is often a symptom of childhood sexual abuse, as is the tendency to sexualize any loving relationships.  Victims of sexual abuse often confuse sex with love, all kinds of love, whether it is romantic or familial, because the person who abused them was usually a family member who professed to love them and that this was how to express it.  The child thinks that the only way to love someone is sexually.  Granted, we don't get any canon evidence that Kozue was sexually abused by any family member, but her cold, downright angry reaction to mommy and daddy (as well as the divorce itself) could suggest that one of them did it and she blames the other -- probably both for the abuse and for separating her from the abusing parent.  (I just re-read that.  I certainly don't want to imply that all children who are pissed at divorcing parents got diddled.  There are lots of reasons to be that snitty with divorcing parents.  Abuse is just one possible).  The other piece of evidence that supports the Kozue was abused theory is that when someone tries to start the same kind of abusive relationship with her brother (the oh-so-lovely piano teacher) she recognizes it immediately, although Miki himself does not, and goes ape-shit.  Her reaction to that teacher is far beyond and far different from her reaction to Anthy or any other girl aiming for Miki's attentions.

So why isn't Miki the same way?  He probably escaped the abuse.  That's usually how it works.  In fact, he was probably beyond sheltered and even encouraged to be asexual by the same parent who hurt his sister.  Most 13 year old boys are a bit unsure and confused.  They aren't as impossibly clueless as Miki is.

That's my two cents.  Make of it what you will.

I know there was a description of a fanfiction somewhere on fanficition.net that brought up that theory, and I'm kind of surprised that it's not more widely accepted here. The portrayal of Miki and Kozue's relationship in such a way that their possible feelings for each other spawned solely from their closeness as twins always comes off as complete bullshit to me. While I can image Ikuhara making such an assumption, over all, it's just not the most realistic theory. The close connection that singleton authors of twincest write about do exist, but the mistake is assuming that such close connection can result in sexual attraction.

The difference in bodies probably wasn't a big shock that they came across at a young age. Even in America, parents of fraternal twins usually don't go to the trouble of ensuring that their twins of opposite genders bathe separately. I was still taking bathes with my sister when I was in first grade, and there was nothing sexual about it.

I'd rather believe that this is not the case, but it does seem very likely that Kozue was molested by her father. What we see of her father doesn't give us much reason to assume that he wouldn't. Even when she was crying out for her brother, he dragged her away to preform against her will. If sexual feelings towards her brother do exist, then being abused by her father not only could have caused her early interest in sex, but also her reasoning for thinking she should be sexual with another family member, namely, Miki. Having been abused might also make him be the only person she feels she can be close to and safe with.

I'm not sure if this applies to fraternal twins, but I was talking with a girl who was reading a book about twins, and apparently the main idea of the book was that what makes have different personalities is caused by secrets kept between the two. Molestation is a very big secret to keep, and one that can greatly change a person's way of thinking.

J-Syxx wrote:

Straight? This is SKU we're talking about right? "Everyone's bi, except for Juri (she's lesbian)."

What about when she hits on Miki in the movie? XD  I wonder if everone being bi was part of Ikuhara's theme of duality.

And she seems so pissed at Ruka when he comes back, even before he goes after Shiori.

I wonder, too. Ikuhara loves to do things like that.

J-Syxx wrote:

Straight? This is SKU we're talking about right? "Everyone's bi, except for Juri (she's lesbian)."

What about when she hits on Miki in the movie? XD  I wonder if everone being bi was part of Ikuhara's theme of duality.

...does she? I guess I forgot that.

Then it is the movie. It might be a case of Juri "in name only" god knows Makio was a victim of this.

Yasha wrote:

I assume that everything I need to make a judgment about a character is already shown.

Well you'd have to assume that, otherwise you'll just spend your time inventing more and more implausible possibilities... and that way madness lies.

...and maybe the whole Kozue thing is much simpler than everyone is making it ... maybe she's just a horny narcissist?

"My twin is almost as sexy as me!"

I mean she is a teenager right? And if there's one thing that most teenagers have in common it's being oversexed.

Kashira wrote:

J-Syxx wrote:

Straight? This is SKU we're talking about right? "Everyone's bi, except for Juri (she's lesbian)."

What about when she hits on Miki in the movie? XD  I wonder if everone being bi was part of Ikuhara's theme of duality.

...does she? I guess I forgot that.

Then it is the movie. It might be a case of Juri "in name only" god knows Makio was a victim of this.

I assume you mean Akio, since I have no idea who Makio is.  XD  I've always interpreted the movie version Akio to be emasculated.  This explains the not so pleasant imagery of what happened to the phalus symbol in his tower.  I'm one of those people who sees the movie version as a quasi-sequel to the tv show, so this emasculation probably metaphorically occurred due to Anthy's actions in the last episode.  lol

Last edited by J-Syxx (11-08-2008 03:03:16 PM)

hollow_rose wrote:

Maybe she decided to be so sexually active to set herself and her identity apart from him. When you think about it he is a pretty tough act to follow, as smart as he is and a genius at piano too. She could pick up something and try to excel in it to set herself apart, but because he is so good at everything seemingly perhaps that was just to daunting for her. It was easier for her to be the "bad" girl to set herself apart from him.

That sounds very plausible to me, especially since she had the shameful solo piano experience so young.  When the only model of what to be (in this case, Miki's equally perfect sister) is something you can't manage, it's easy to embrace something a bit more "wild animal"-esque instead.

Lightice wrote:

Makio is short for Movie Akio.

And here I thought it was Mock Akio.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Note that in the car with Anthy, Kozue says that she has heard the engaged receives powers and that she wants Anthy to show Kozue those powers.  Kozue has a bit of an obsession with power and with having it so that she will never again feel like she did in the first quote (as if she can't do anything by herself).  I feel that scenario in the car had little to do with Miki and everything to do with Kozue's infatuation with power.  The fact that it distracted Miki was an unfortunate side affect (though one that may have been intended by one or more parties for one or more reasons--such as Kozue proving her power over Miki...and possibly even protecting him from the loss of innocence winning the duels would have necessitated!).

Hmm... I'm not sure if it had little to do with Miki, because this made me think of something.  Prior to her own duel, Kozue is obviously not cool with Miki's increasing interest in Anthy and the possibility that he's losing interest in her, and yet prior to Miki's duel she's telling him to "make her his".  Why?  I doubt she's gotten over her insecurities, but I also don't think she really wanted him to lose, because she seems pretty unhappy about it afterwards.

But what if she'd thought that she wouldn't lose Miki's affection if she helped him win Anthy?  You know, if winning her was a sort of team effort?  And from there it isn't a huge jump to the idea that perhaps they'd share the Rose Bride, especially as she now knows that Anthy really is something to be won and especially in that Kozue is trying to calm her insecurities.  Of course, since it's Kozue, this means taking a sexual view of Anthy, but I think she also might have been trying to test Miki by her antics in the arena-side car.  Kind of "by the way, brother, we'll be sharing this one, and you're ok with that, because of course you weren't looking for someone to take my place, right?".

Which would explain why she's so upset at the end.  It isn't just that Miki lost, and now neither of them get any Rose Bride, it's also that, in losing because of her distraction, he showed (in her estimation, anyway) that he wouldn't be ok with the mental model she'd set up that allowed her to be ok with him getting together with Anthy.  Thus "coward" is short for "I gave you a chance at a happy solution for both of us, and you blew it because you aren't man enough to deal with it".

I'm not 100% committed to this theory just yet, but it does sound plausible.