Maybe for movie Akio, you're dealing with a different structure of the Utena tale. Movie Akio in a way is more condensed, his character basically has to go from subtle to evil in a matter of 0 to 60 seconds.

I would be more accepting of Movie-Akio the real Akio didn't exist. Every time I look at him, I think, "Wow. Great job at screwing up one of the greatest anime villains of all time." He's like Manga-Kozue, except where Anime-Kozue was a huge step forward, Movie-Akio is like stepping backwards and falling off a cliff in the process. (Or out of a window, if you prefer.)

The worst part is that Akio was replaced by a schoolgirl. I know that Shiori isn't the nicest character in the world, but who honestly thought that she would be a good replacement for Akio? They took a cool villain, and turned him into a wuss, and they took Shiori, and turned her into an evil, manipulative, sadistic bitch. I love Movie-Shiori, but this is still a step backwards in many ways.


Perhaps he turned out the way he did to go along with the movie's theme that there are no princes in this world. Shiori, whether she is End of the World or not, would never be mistaken for a prince. Akio, on the other hand, is more than capable enough to create that illusion for people like Utena. Movie-Akio was a much simpler character. We learn everything we need to know about him just by listening to the Shadow Girls. He appears to be a prince, and perhaps he was, just as Akio was Dios at some point, but he proves himself otherwise by raping his sister. Despite that, Anthy is still under the illusion that he is a Prince, though he no longer is.

Those are valid points.  In a movie, you're pushing it if you go over 2 hours.  To condense the entire story of Utena into something that can be delivered in that time frame would be difficult.  The confines of the medium are probably a major reason why characters are shallower or missing altogether in the movie.

However, when I watch the movie, I can't imagine how a person who knew nothing about Utena would be able to digest that craziness.  I'm unable to watch it from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about the story.  Maybe it makes sense within itself!  But I've shown it to friends who I consider insightful and intelligent and their reactions are, "Um, what's with the...  Ok, what's going on here about the... " and then after it ends, "Um... Huh?"

From this and other cues, I figure that they weren't intending the movie to be a standalone, but rather a different version intended for fans.  So the timeframe constraints remain, but I presume they could have chosen use Akio's character in the movie in a drastically different way.

So I'm not trying to think of practical reasons, but rather thematic reasons for their choices.  If they'd cut Shiori out altogether or used her a lot less and stuck Akio into it more, his character could have been less shallow.  He's "dead", yeah, but he's talking on the phone with Touga while "dead."  Touga's dead, too. 

Deadness doesn't seem to really explain his lack of screentime.  However, the movie's theme that "There are no Princes" does suggest some reasons.  Making him less sympathetic, more pathetic, etc. allows the viewer to deride Movie-Akio far more than Anime-Akio.  That seems like a step backwards in several ways, however.  (Shallow villains suck, and he doesn't appear to be that big of an obstacle!)

And there's another thing...  Touga's character in the movie is still somewhat ambiguous.  His motives and behavior can have two fairly different interpretations, one emphasizing that he's a "good sort of guy", the other that he's a total jerk.  But Utena herself claims that he was always there for her, until he died -- performing a noble deed -- and although she is is leaving Ohtori and giving up any need to depend on a Prince, she tells Touga that he really was her Prince.

Does "no Princes" mean that "no one is perfect"?  Or does it mean, literally, no Prince in Ohtori because Akio is a fake?  Does it mean that there shouldn't be Princes?

I said once before that, in conjunction with the Thanatos/Dios thing (which Yasha explains here) that, perhaps to be a real "Prince", a person has to die, much as Touga dies trying to save Juri.  Because if the Prince doesn't die, not only has he not completed his duty (under several interpretations: Thanatos and my Displaced Gods theory, to name 2), but he will most likely end up losing all of his Princely qualities.

So if Touga is at least half a Prince, what is that saying about there being no Princes at all?!  Isn't Touga in the Movie at least somewhat analagous to Dios in the series?  In the series, Akio says there was never a Prince, but he also says he was a Prince once.  How can those two facts be reconciled?  Isn't the same kind of dichotomy (not the best word...) presented in the movie?

I'm also trying to think of what, if anything, the caricature they made of Movie-Akio says about Akio's character in general.  This is definitely one of those cases where comparisons between all the mediums is welcome.

For example, brian says that Akio in the Movie Manga displays "a strong sense of entitlement" and "seems tremendously spoiled and corrupted."  Now, I don't think we even get these points from the character of Movie-Akio.  He's in a total of, what, 3 or 4 scenes?  If I could find a script, I'd post all his dialouge...

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 04:23:20 PM)

Hysterical Woman wrote:

Do Miki fans complain that he was turned into a power-hungry and possibly murderous bastard?

The second one is jsut a theory that I, for one, find extremely unlikely. As for the first one - isn't he pretty much the same way in the series?

Hina the Prince wrote:

Hysterical Woman wrote:

Do Miki fans complain that he was turned into a power-hungry and possibly murderous bastard?

The second one is jsut a theory that I, for one, find extremely unlikely. As for the first one - isn't he pretty much the same way in the series?

Hmm, Miki as power-hungry? You can see him going that way towards the end of the series (like in his Akio Saga episode), but for most of the series he's so subtle even he doesn't realize that's what he wants.

Actually, you could say that all the Duelist are power-hungry. Afterall, they are seeking The Power (to revolutionize the world).

On the murderous thing, that's why I said "possibly". I know about the debate over that. Still, the bathtub scene shows movie!Miki to be a very different character than series!Miki.

Last edited by Hysterical Woman (04-05-2007 09:12:27 AM)

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I know this has been mentioned here before, but no one else has brought it up yet:

Movie-Akio looks a lot younger than his series counterpart.  He could be viewed as Akio between the transition of Dios and Ends of the World.  Anthy, similarly, is far more outgoing and far more neurotic than her series counterpart.  She could be viewed as Anthy before she had completely closed herself away in the coffin and assimilated her role as Rose Bride.  The Rose Bride, in the movie, is much more of a "Princess" than in the series--and I don't think Anthy's ever set up as being a not-Princess the way she is in the series.

.

It's falling back on the whole idea of the movie being this "what the?" version of the original storyline, and we could go into why movie Anthy wears her hair down as opposed to it being in the neat bun, or why Juri's hair is much longer. These choices, which all seem to be aesthetic decisions, are really interesting to look at. The perspective I look at it from, was why did Ikuhara choose to make movie Akio younger? In the series, his whole dash appeal is founded on this notion that he is a fucking sexy older man. Movie Akio is not a sexy older man, he fits in with the rest of the cast as being gorgeous-students who are warped in this very adult world.

Personal_IceQueen wrote:

The perspective I look at it from, was why did Ikuhara choose to make movie Akio younger? In the series, his whole dash appeal is founded on this notion that he is a fucking sexy older man. Movie Akio is not a sexy older man, he fits in with the rest of the cast as being gorgeous-students who are warped in this very adult world.

I saw Anthy's hairstyle in the series as representing her own repression.  First, it's a visible symbol of "control."  And also, she puts up her own hair.  She represses her own personality (whatever that may be, it's difficult to tell in the series).  She places her own inner self into the coffin.  Then in the end she comes out of her coffin and she takes down her hair.

The fact that Movie-Anthy's hair is down supports my feeling that she is not as rigidly controlled, as repressed, as numb as Series-Anthy.

But some of the things done with Movie-Akio don't seem as clear to me.  And your statements here are interesting.  He's presumably a little older than his sister and the students, but he's still much younger.  And he visibly fits in with the rest of the younger cast.

I re-read an interview today with Ikuhara:

Ikuhara wrote:

IKUHARA-SAN: And the reason why Utena thinks she killed the prince,
IKUHARA-SAN: Is because Utena realized that Touga was dead.
IKUHARA-SAN: By realizing that Touga was dead, Utena realized that she no longer needed a prince.
IKUHARA-SAN: And that was her departure from the girl's world of dependence (on the prince) into a grownup's world.

Granted, take Ikuhara's statements with a grain of salt.  But in the series, the "adult" world is presented as something that is not necessarily desirable.  Everything that comes from it is fruit from the poison tree.  On the other hand, Anthy looks a lot more "adult" when she leaves Ohtori--which is, notably, a school--which is generally a place you attend as a child, but stop attending as an adult.  (Sort of.)  "Graduation" implies a sort of growing up.

So it's not that the series is saying that you should avoid becoming an adult, it's simply saying that you should become an adult on your own terms.  That buying into the materialism, superiority complex, user mentality, and cynicism of "adulthood" aren't necessary.  That you don't have to conform to the system, you can create your own.

However, our only real "adult" is Akio in the series, and he is basically the villain.  His view of adulthood is the only one we get to see.  I'd say we become justifiably suspicious of it.

In the movie, however, we see no adults at all.  Even Akio is not an adult.  I'd say the message regarding adulthood ends up being essentially the same.  But it's delivered in such a manner that adulthood is a complete mystery, something without any negative connotations at all.

(I'm not saying that the message regarding growing up is the only one; it's not at all.  That's what makes SKU so great. But it is a pretty major one, and probably very relevant to why they might choose to make Akio younger.)

In the series, Akio is an adult.  But he's one who is very emotionally immature, when you get right down to it.  In the movie, Akio doesn't appear to be an adult.  But he's still the school's chairman and he's still engaged. Those are roles an adult would fill.  He's shown as being very unsuitable for those positions.  A person with authority over an entire school of young people who drugs and molests his own sister.  An engaged man who is sexually involved with another girl.  When he realizes that someone else has seen it, he has a fit of hysteria, like a teenager.

In a way, he could be a representation of the inner Akio.  An emotionally stunted, essentially immature man trying to fill the shoes of an adult.  That still discards a host of Akio's most important characteristics, though.

In the context of the movie, perhaps he is young and ineffectual on purpose.  He's young, trying to act like an adult without having the resources of character and maturity required--which makes him completely ineffectual.  Effectively it emasculates him.  Because he's not able to meet any of the expectations placed on him, he's not able to truly do anything a grown man is expected to do, and so he is unable to be a man in any sense.

Which explains the tower and key...

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 07:55:30 PM)

What a fantastic thread!

Digression: I have lots of problems with the movie too. I just don't see Shiori as being evil enough to be End-of-the-World or deserving of being turned into roadside wreckage. The movie is parasitic on the series. Someone watching it cold is not going to have a clue about the cow. But back on topic:

I like the idea of movie Akio being a younger version.

Hopefully this won't send the thread off into a ditch, but it seems to me that the movie manga (by Saito I presume) avoids many, (not all) of the problems of the movie, (by Ikuhara, I presume).  Ikuhara, perhaps was overly ambitious and muddled his own message.

I remember waiting on a corner and nearby were three kids: a little brother and two older sisters. They seemed "ethnic" but I could not tell what part of the world they were from. They were probably 2nd generation. The plump little boy was spouting vapid obscenities and his older sisters were just doting on him like he was the coolest, manliest thing in the world. He was obviously the prince of his family just because he was the only boy. He was obviously tremendously spoiled and probably corrupted by his adoring sisters and probably was going to grow up to be a monster, and a weak and inept one at that.

Perhaps both versions are valid in different ways. Movie Akio is a type of moderately realistic person who can do a lot of harm as an individual to another individual. He seems to have feelings and vulnerabilities and real qualities that a person could reasonably love. He comes across as being slightly capable of real ideals and real love for his sister. The voracious series Akio is not believable as a real person, but he makes a better archetype and he better sums up the crushing, beguiling totality of "The World" or "The System" or perhaps Mara.

Meh, I don't like the movie anyway so I'll be brief. I think they wasted a lot of time on stupid things (the Nanami cow, the dance sequence, etc.) when they could have been doing more imp things on screen.

I remember someone saying that Ikuhara said movie Akio is like a younger version of series Akio? That does make its own sense to me. Maybe movie Akio is series Akio true nature, underneath the hot sexy manipulative mask. Just a thought.

And I don't really see movie Shiori as being series Akio's replacement.

Hysterical Woman wrote:

When I first saw the movie, I hadn't seen enough of the series to really know about Akio. When I recently rewatched, I understood the disappointment about MovieAkio vs. SeriesAkio. But it's not like the other characters were exactly the same. Do Miki fans complain that he was turned into a power-hungry and possibly murderous bastard?

Actually, I was pretty pleased with his character, and I'm a big Miki fan. He is, in my mind, very much like the series Miki; he wants to be big and powerful and kool, but he just isn't and his sister wants his attention but he's cold to her. Juri starts to flirt with him and we see the bravado for what it is, just an act. I didn't interpret the scene as murder either, or Miki as a bastard, since he was being pretty nice to Kozue in the bathtub, if cool.

Last edited by YamPuff (04-05-2007 05:53:33 AM)

Personal_IceQueen wrote:

And the "Lord of flies" reference, is going to require me reading the book over again,

I never read that book. But Lord of the Flies is Beelzebub in Hebrew which in turn is derived from some god named Baal-zebul. That's the limit of my knowledge on that subject.

I like it in the sense of children who are suddenly thrown into a world without adults.  They have to take care of themselves, but because they are children, instead they make a horrible mess of it.  They also make up fairy tales about things like the Beast.

Incidentally, that book always makes me want to kill every single one of those little monsters.

Hmm... back to comparison.

In the scene where "the Prince" loses his powers, Movie-Akio explains that what made the Prince the Prince, and what gave him his power, was his sister--who was Witch.  Her powers faded and the Prince correspondingly was shown for what he truly was--Lord of the Flies.

In one sense, this just means that when Anthy stops deluding herself with the illusion of a Prince, her brother's perfidy can't help but become obvious to her.

This is also where we hear about "Lord of the Flies", which apparently refers to the Devil in about the same way as the Lucifer reference does in the series.  Of course, I wasn't aware of the Beezelbub comparison, either, so I always thought of the book, too, without really drawing any enlightenment from it.  The Beast comparison covers a lot about Movie-Akio.  But "Lord of the Flies" can also be so simple as to refer to the fact that, being nothing but dead meat...maggots and flies.

When Anthy's powers faded, was that the first time Movie-Akio realized he wasn't a Prince?

But, most importantly, the only time Anthy is stabbed is by her brother.  That is what made her the Rose Bride.  Whereas in the series, the same "humanity" that is beating on the door stabs her.  We don't see how that ends in the movie, but presumably Anthy is not lynched like she is in the series.

So instead of being harmed for her brother's sake, which ironically turns her brother into someone willing to harm her, Movie-Anthy is harmed only by her brother.

Instead of Movie-Akio losing his "Dios" identity because what humanity did to his sister--presumably out of hatred for humanity--Movie-Akio loses his "Dios" identity because Anthy can't sustain it.

If we accept that, at least on one level, the swarm of black cars is analagous to the million swords of hate, we can presume that humanity is just fine with the Rose Bride, so long as she stays in Ohtori.

Combine this fact with statements about Ohtori, and Ohtori seems to become a place of punishment, like pergatory, for Anthy.

All this, from Movie-Akio's perspective, gives him a very different history from Series-Akio.  One in which he is entirely dependent upon his sister.

I actually thought of the black and pink sword as being the "Rose Bride" sword. ;;  But I guess it could be Akio's, too...  I don't think they ever say.