Is it possible that Anthy is a prince? You know, just a deflowered, pissed off one.

Yasha wrote:

Anothr explanation could be that the character of the Prince is calling the character of the witch by the name of 'Princess-Shrine'-- mistaking her for something holy and precious, something to be protected. This explains it symbolically, both pointing out Anthy's masquerade and eventual transformation into the person Utena believes her to be. A metamophosis of sorts.

I think I tend to go with this interpratation. Regardless of how Anthy felt about her, Utena loved Anthy in one way or another. I think that by the end of the series, we saw  what was on Utena's part, an unconditional love for Anthy, regardless of what Anthy was, had been, or had done. Seeing it that way, Utena calling Anthy by her last name in the last episode makes sense to me. Good one Yasha.

The fun thing about the archetypes Utena uses is that almost every character can be easily fitted with the three aspects of Prince, Rose Bride, and Witch.

Juri, for example. As a Prince, she has a high sense of honor and is very protective of those she loves. She gives Utena a sword to duel Touga with, in order to defeat him and take back her self. She attempts to defend Shiori from Ruka, and protects her when she can. As a Witch, she attacks Utena and attempts to rip off her ring. She derides Utena's idea of becoming a 'Prince', and slaps Anthy. As a Rose Bride, she is bound to Shiori and her burden is her unrequited love for her.

Miki as a Prince defends Anthy, protects her from bullies, and believes in allowing personal freedom for her. His role as a Witch is subdued, and has to be read into: he forces his own opinions and feelings on Anthy by attemtping to take her from Utena by force. By doing this, he plays the Witch to Utena's Prince. Miki as a Rose Bride is bound to Kozue, and his burden is the loss of their childhood and Kozue's innocence.

All three aspects play into each other. For example: a character may believe they are acting Princely while they are actually acting as a Witch. Ruka is a good example of that. 

Anthy does have Princely qualities in greater measure than many of the main cast have.

Well, I didn't see that as Anthy being shown as an acting prince, but rather for her striving for a more noble life, or to act more like Utena had before the end of the series hit. Since Utena is so strongly on her mind and imprinted into her lifestyle, Anthy appears wearing her old outfit. She's seen embracing a nude, but oppositely-posed Utena to display that Utena is there in more of a spiritual sense than a physical, and/or also that there's a sexual nature to her desire toward her. The opposite-upside down direction gives the impression of duality and also distance.

Um, excuse me while I dissect.

brian wrote:

That illustration comes from a teaser so I am slightly mistrustful of it. It comes from a larger montage showing Utena carousing with Miki and Kozue, Anthy with some strange symbol on her forehead etc. Possibly it is mere mis-direction designed to confuse viewers. But still I wonder if there are clues to characters and desires in that montage.

I'm realizing now that it was probably a mistake to post that picture--my intent was only to remind people who have read the comic of what I was talking about. But I guess having the illustration there was misleading instead. It wasn't actually what I was referring to.

Of course, there's a lot to debate about the validity of Anthy's apparent princeliness at the end of the comic, too, but I'm not the best at sounding eloquent when I talk about my opinions, so...

Actually, now I'm curious. Who here has actually READ the comics?

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am thinking about Anthy stabbing Utena. One could just as easily say that Anthy was being loyal to Akio as betraying Utena but probably she was not really thinking at all. It was probably just panic, similar to the panic she was feeling when she first locked Dios away.

I think that at that same emotional point in the movie and movie manga we see Anthy hesitate when Utena urges them to escape to the outside world. In the movie Utena is sucked into the car wash while Anthy whimpers in terror. In the movie manga Utena drowns in roses, while Anthy looks on helplessly. In the original manga Utena is lashed by rose thorns while Anthy looks on with unseeing eyes. So it is not betrayal by Anthy or an attempt to rescue Utena or anyone else, Anthy is just not thinking  clearly. It's just terror, a habit carried over from a lifetime of terror and grief and remorse and loneliness. In all cases Anthy hesitates, Utena is lost, Anthy now realizes that she now has to free both herself and Utena.

Anthy had tried to have both Utena and Akio and was terrified at losing either of them and perhaps both.  In all four stories Utena is immobilized until Anthy awakens and finds her true heart and true courage. First Utena showed her an example of courage and then Anthy scraped the rust off of her heart and followed.

Ragnarok wrote:

brian wrote:

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am thinking about Anthy stabbing Utena. One could just as easily say that Anthy was being loyal to Akio as betraying Utena but probably she was not really thinking at all. It was probably just panic, similar to the panic she was feeling when she first locked Dios away.

Akio gives Anthy the sword of Dios, though. And Anthy's actions appear quite composed and controlled. Stabbing Utena seems like something Akio and Anthy arranged long before the duel began.

I agree. I don't think Anthy panicked when she locked away Dios, either. She just wanted the world to leave him alone.

Giovanna wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series.

100% agreement, just throwing in her genuine laugh in episode 25. That's a big one.

When was that? I skimmed through the episode and didn't see it. DDD: I gotta rewatch SKU.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (11-27-2006 06:47:28 AM)

I think that scene oddly supports my idea. Wakaba and Utena inadvertantly make her giggle for possibly the first time in years, and Akio is outraged. He wants her to be fearful of any happiness he does not provide.

The word "panic" is unfortunate because it implies something that flashes by and is gone. But Anthy's thoughts have been clouded and distorted by fear from since before Dios "died." If asked to explain her action rationally Anthy might say something like:

- Akio has always been good to me, Utena is an interloper.
- Akio knows me as I am, Utena does not.
- Akio knows the world as it is, Utena does not, she has not seen the horror of the world.
- Akio has a fixed purpose, Utena cannot even make up her mind whether she is a Prince or a Princess. Even after she promised to save me she let Akio confuse her and put her on the defensive.
- Akio is family.
- There is nothing for me in the outside world.
- It's my fault that he is the way he is, I must serve out my well-deserved punishment.

To Anthy this seems like logic. Every one of these propositions is erroneous but they make a lot of sense to someone dominated by fear. He probably is deeply humiliated on some level that he had to have Anthy rescue him from Utena and would not have resorted to it except in case of emergency. Fear, grief, doubt and self-loathing are interrelated emotions.

Maarika: Have you noticed how Utena always addresses Anthy as "Himemiya", while the majority of everyone else always calls her Anthy? (Well, putting aside manga and movie >.>)

After rewatching the series, I found only one part (unless I overlooked something) where Utena addressed her as Anthy. It was in episode 20, just before the duel with Wakaba.
I think there has to be a reason why she does so. I'm thinking that it might be because of the way how people treated Anthy, so this was Utena's way of showing respect to her. But I don't know really, what do you think?

There's some really great Anthy analysis in this thread - I've enjoyed reading it.

Interestingly I didn't find the answer to this question that I've always accepted as the likely reason. I think Utena calls Anthy "Himemiya" to be different from everyone else. Other people usually call her "Anthy". Especially her victors...who call her "Anthy" when they are her victors.

Not from friendship mind you, but from the fact that she's the lowest of the low, the rose bride. In the case of the victors - someone forced into intimacy with them, in the kind of relationship a husband has to his wife (who he will call by her first name while she addresses him with the polite -san or ultra-respectful -sama that Anthy uses).

So "Anthy" being called "Anthy" by Akio (which at least makes sense - he is the older respected brother), Touga, and Saionji is actually an insult when you think about it.

In contrast Utena gives Anthy respect by using her more impersonal and formal family name. She doesn't use her first name and a suffix (say Anthy-chan for instance) because that would be too close, and would be imposing close friendship on Anthy when they are not really friends yet (don't even know each other). She doesn't call her Himemiya-san because that would be a stranger, and Anthy is more than a stranger. As well as respect "Himemiya" shows Utena doesn't buy into the whole rose bride deal, since she won't use the right terminology to back up Anthy's role as her possession/bride.

The fact that she uses "Anthy" at the duel with Wakaba, at a point when they really could be friends, and Anthy as her friend is begging Utena to do something to her best friend Wakaba that she just can't conceive of...
...is a powerful hint to the true status of their relationship.

Utena says "Anthy" in an unguarded moment when she's begging Anthy to see things her way - appealing to their closeness. She reverts back to Himemiya when removed from the emotional cliffhanger.

Anthy says "Utena" rather than Utena-sama when she steps out into the real world. Basically through this linguistic choice she acknowledges their more-than-friendship (to call someone by only their first name is actually very intimate from what I understand. You can't just come out and do it like you can in English...it's common to ask permission at a certain point. Usually friends would be more like Utena-chan, unless you were older and they were younger in the case of Juri and Shiori ie Juri-san and Shiori/Shiori-kun). She also acknowledges that she is not the rose bride, and Utena is not her victor...when Touga won Anthy off Utena she called Utena "Tenjou-san".

She's saying she's free, and that she loves Utena (in whatever form you want to take that). And all in a form of address! *sniffles*

Don't you just love the Japanese language with all it's formality and politeness rules?

I love these linguistic analyses. Keep them coming!

satyr: It'll be interesting, if they meet in the outside world, to see how Utena addresses her then.

Very! In fact I think that's one of the most fascinating things about when they meet again. So much can be done with it.

For my own part in the fantasy world of post-series fanfic (Roses Grow) I had Anthy use "Utena" but slip back into Utena-sama at times. And I had Utena exclusively use Himemiya until some key events happened between them, including an emotionally intensive moment for Utena to use it accidentally (like the duel with Wakaba).

I think for Utena to call Anthy by her first name (even in the real world) would involve her admitting certain things about her feelings to herself. But that's just one of many possible takes.

Anthiena: ..however, the bit on the Wakaba Duel where Utena called her Anthy is changed with the remaster-the line is corrected to "Himemiya..."

Really? Ooooh this changes everything. I guess that means it really was just a mistake by the makers and Utena is meant to call Anthy "Himemiya" throughout the anime. Very interesting.

Ragnarok wrote:

Thinking about it, though... it seems like an odd mistake to make. I wouldn't be that surprised if it was done on purpose and, ten years later, Ikuhara forgot and thought it needed fixing.

I agree. When voice actresses do their recordings, don't they just read it off the script? It's not likely that it could be a mistake on Miss Kawakami's part. Even if it was, wouldn't the staff in the recording studio point it out? Perhaps it was intended that Utena would call Anthy by her first name in that scene, but a decade later Ikuhara wanted to mend it for consistency's sake.