Maarika wrote:

I believe Anthy's and Akio's relationship could be considered as one of the reasons why Anthy's and Utena's relationship would likely become sexual in the end.... Now let's say Anthy and Utena are reunited (which I think was meant to be that way)....I think the same could be said about Utena, but I'm a bit uncertain about her since she seemed quite unaware of her own sexuality for the most part.

A lot of that comes down to purely personal interpretation. There is lots of evidence for this. If you go with this interpretation keep in mind that there is evidence that Anthy and Utena's relationship was sexual from some indeterminate point earlier on. The recurring scene where they fall into bed simultaneously implies that.

Utena does not seem to repress her sexuality so much; it's more like it is out of alignment with her mind and heart and ideals.

If Utena had even the tiniest bit of lust for Anthy, Anthy would have  motivation from the start to fan that spark into a flame, both for herself and for her role.

Major re-edit:
It's surprising how the double-entendres and innuendo show up more starkly in the scripts:

Akio:  That's wonderful. That jam is made from the rose hips that Anthy raises,
Akio:  stewed with brandy and sugar.
........
........
........
Anthy:  Would you like some too? It's very good.
Utena:  Nanami! What're you doing? You're shocking Anthy.
Nanami:  I don't want any of that jam.
Utena:  Well you don't have to get so violent about it.
Utena:  Wait a sec. I said wait!
Nanami:  What?
Utena:  Apologize to Akio-san and Himemiya!
Nanami:  Are you stupid?! You don't have a clue what's going on, do you?!
Utena:  Geez, what the heck is she babbling about?
Akio:  I'm sure she's got a lot on her mind. About siblings and such.
........
........
........
Anthy:  And it really was good, too.
***
Here is Anthy herself describing her own jam:

Utena:  That Nanami! How can she hog your bed when she's sponging off you?!"
Anthy:  I'll sleep in my brother's room, so don't worry.
Utena:  Well, I guess Nanami's got it rough too.
Utena:  Why can't she realize her bad brother is deceiving her?
Anthy:  People find it hard to doubt those they've fallen in love with.
Anthy:  They can't even imagine they're being deceived and used.
http://www.ohtori.nu/scripts/Episode_31.htm
and
http://www.ohtori.nu/scripts/Episode_32.htm

Last edited by brian (03-20-2007 05:11:52 PM)

Rats, such a fantastic posting and I don't have time this week to even read it properly.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I had forgotten the scene in which a young Rose Bride Anthy clings to an adolescent Dios, presumably just after their "fall" (I'm not sure why I always call it that), and she says, "I understand, from now on we'll live to help each other."

I always assumed that was before the fall, she remembers friendship with Dios as something in the distant past. Whatever it was with Akio, it was probably never real friendship. Friendship can sometimes be more important than love itself.

There are many kinds of incest -- moral, spiritual, intellectual, even political. All of these may also have some bearing.

Can't wait till I find time to read this and some of the other recent postings more thoroughly.

That's a good question, perhaps there is no real differences between the roles of Rose Bride and Princess in Anthy's mind and hence no need for different dresses. She apparently always wore red. Perhaps a Princess is a Rose Bride.

Maybe we should start a separate thread though.

brian wrote:

This is getting off-topic too but I just realized that Anthy and Nanami are two of the most perceptive and observant people in the series. Nanami especially has the makings of a good detective. Yet they have both deceived themselves. Deep down, they may both realize it, but aren't facing up to it.

Don't forget Saionji. He was the guy who said "We must leave our coffins!" first, not to mention understand that the End of the World had tricked them. He's got more brain in that head of his than he bothers to show in the first or second arc.

This is all getting very interesting. This is the best forum ever to lurk in.

brian wrote:

Maarika wrote:

I believe Anthy's and Akio's relationship could be considered as one of the reasons why Anthy's and Utena's relationship would likely become sexual in the end.... Now let's say Anthy and Utena are reunited (which I think was meant to be that way)....I think the same could be said about Utena, but I'm a bit uncertain about her since she seemed quite unaware of her own sexuality for the most part.

A lot of that comes down to purely personal interpretation. There is lots of evidence for this. If you go with this interpretation keep in mind that there is evidence that Anthy and Utena's relationship was sexual from some indeterminate point earlier on. The recurring scene where they fall into bed simultaneously implies that.

Utena does not seem to repress her sexuality so much; it's more like it is out of alignment with her mind and heart and ideals.

If Utena had even the tiniest bit of lust for Anthy, Anthy would have  motivation from the start to fan that spark into a flame, both for herself and for her role.

But doesn't Utena say something along the lines of "Anthy and I are purely---that is not to say that you aren't pure" to Juri regarding her relationship with Shiori? And, in a series where sex is almost always very obvious (Touga and his fangirls, Touga and Akio, Akio and Anthy), if they were having sex you'd think they'd be more obvious about it. They are the main characters, after all.

We went back and forth about that in this thread.  I certainly see it that way, too.  When Utena says "pure", I think she means "We ARE not sexually involved and I don't want to be sexually involved with Anthy."  (Which, given Utena's personality, doesn't entirely preclude it post-series, as several people, including Hina above, have pointed out.)  But I still don't see them as being romantically inclined toward each other.

However, I dislike the implication that Anthy's sexualized behavior is in any way healthy.  You'd have to have a drastically different take on Anthy's personality to conceive of it that way.  Which is everyone's prerogative, of course--don't think I'm saying anyone has to agree with me!  But I still view Anthy's sexual behavior as compulsive and neurotic, based on self-loathing and a lifetime of sexual abuse (I guess you could see it as them both abusing each other, to reference the topic of this thread; since there's no way of really knowing who started it.).

If Anthy shows sexual inclinations toward Utena, it's because that's conditioned into her as a defense mechanism--as a method to get power, and because it's the only way she knows how to interact with people she cares about.  This is not right or healthy, and it does not follow that Anthy will ever have normal, healthy feelings of sexual desire for Utena.  The kind of feelings that would lead to a solid romantic and sexual relationship.

Though Anthy leaving Ohtori means "freedom" and "release", if you are practical, you know that she will have a long way to go.  She can't be made instantly whole, nor can she change the habits of a lifetime overnight.  One of the points made is that, now that she has left her coffin and stepped through Ohtori's gates, she will get there, certainly.  But I feel that it would be a very. bad. thing. for Anthy and Utena to be sexually involved for the wrong reasons (of which there are many).

Which is probably one of the reasons I avoid that interpretation altogether and find that it "cheapens" their relationship in my mind.  (One of the other reasons being that I don't have the healthiest attitudes toward sex, either.   Shame indoctrination I haven't ever entirely shaken.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 08:32:42 AM)

Ah, thank you?  Maybe because I just did a re-watch? 

Several people have mentioned that fanfic...Jacquemart?  And how, in it, Utena and Anthy are presented as a couple in most ways, and apparently in love, but still haven't consummated the relationship sexually--because of Anthy.  I think that would have to be accurate.

But I think you make my point regarding romance v. friendship better than I do.  It's one of the reasons the relationship is ambiguous, I think.  Some people are obsessed with the idea of romance and feel it's a deeper and more meaningful connection.  I certainly have that tendency with other anime--do not try to tell me Amon and Robin aren't a couple. ;)

Ikuahara wrote:

Ikuhara-San: In reality, if I have a guy in the show, the love relationship gets to have a bigger role than the show.
Ikuhara-San: And that would be an interesting element, but I wouldn't want that to make that the scene-stealer of the show.
Ikuhara-San: Most other shoujo shows are in that direction.
Ikuhara-San: It's about who-and-who are getting together, or who-and-who are breaking up.
Ikuhara-San: I thought it would be a loss if that would be the big motif just because a girl was the main character.
Ikuhara-San: I think there could be more shows with other motives than that.

The way I read this is that most anime about girls IS ABOUT romance and their relationships, more than it is about other things.  This is very true of the Sailormoon manga--it's primarily a love story.  And I love that love story.  Girls are portrayed as being obsessed with boys and relationships (think about what the "normal students" in Ohtori talk about constantly).  This is true in American TV too--think about Buffy or Charmed or Grey's Anatomy.  There's a hell of a lot else going on that's pretty freaking important, but they're all obsessing about their relationships!  To me it's suggestive of trying to compartmentalize women, though you could argue that it reflects the real world, where women with families have to try to balance career and traditional female duties.  It still annoys me in a lot of cases.

Utena and Anthy are deliberately ambiguous in this respect on purpose.  To avoid this pitfall.  To make the story about other things, and to have a show with other motives than just that.

There is the line from the song that goes:

Let go of me,
Take my Revolution.

It seems to be Utena talking to Anthy although I am not sure. The accompanying graphic shows them being torn apart and Utena falling asleep, perhaps to be re-awakened by Anthy. It's quite a bit different from the way the movie ended. I don't think it means that they cannot come back to together to re-establish whatever kind of relationship it is that they have. Perhaps it just means that you must first belong to yourself before you can truly give yourself to another.

I don't know if this applies to Utena but Anthy must experience a period of autonomy and loneliness and, from that, self-confidence with which to build a healthy relationship. It is the place where Kozue and Nanami had not been able to go earlier on in the story.

The movie and movie-manga have more romantic endings but perhaps the first manga and the anime are showing a bit more psychological wisdom.

Utena seems to have decided that Anthy needs to enter this place of loneliness and creativity. Meanwhile Anthy has the ring, a keepsake of the future instead of the sword which had been a keepsake of the past.

Last edited by brian (05-04-2007 10:21:13 PM)

Changing the topic slightly I am curious about something. Akio tells lots and lots of lies. I am starting to think that he NEVER tells the truth, or when he does, he uses it to bolster a lie. Can anyone point out a place where he tells the truth and nothing but the truth?

I think when it comes to Akio you can't really say he's a liar or that he's honest. Just that he's completely full of shit. There are stunningly few lines in the series where Akio is called on to lie or tell the truth; usually he dodges those bullets by approaching the subject in metaphor. Superficially at least, he's only commenting on something, not asserting a truth or nontruth.

That said, I tend to find Akio's more manipulative moments to be ones where I think he is being honest, but the presentation of that honesty is itself a lie because it's deceptive somehow. Before his last duel, Akio tells Touga he's hoping for his success. This is a lie because that isn't at all in Akio's plan and he knows it won't happen. On the other hand, at face value, it's probably true; Akio's still overconfident but I think not quite enough that he'd have minded all that much if Utena was not the one fighting the Revolution duel. Pretty much everything he says and that transpires because he says it's so in that duel I think is true. (Pretty much. I don't think he can call how he feels about Anthy 'love' any more than Saionji can.) The stuff about his dreaming about the castle? Sure, why not? Prince is dead? Yep. There never was a prince? Well if you think about it...

I think his tears are quite honest. But he's full of shit when he sheds them. Anthy is aware of both sides of that coin.

Edit: DAMN YOU YASHA! I was gonna answer with the harem comment but I figured I wouldn't be the smartass for once.

Last edited by Giovanna (05-18-2007 10:16:27 PM)

Was Akio being at all honest when he spoke to Nemuro when he graduated? I guess that probably wouldn't be a good example given he said everything obliquely, and the audience doesn't have a damn clue what he is actually getting at when he says what he does. It's not as if we ever actually work out what happened to Nemuro when he left the school (if he indeed actually did). The thing is, though, the scene on the phone always struck me as being slightly unusual in the way Akio speaks to Nemuro. Although there's a touch of the usual Akio to it, he's more point-blank about explaining the situation than he usually is. Is he telling the truth? Because we're never actually shown the truth, I suppose there's no way of telling. It's just that I don't think he ever spoke as directly to anyone else of what he did to manipulate them (Yes. The boy called Mamiya that you were keeping with you from your lingering attachment to Tokiko, died a long time ago. I exploited the illusion you cherished in your memory so much that you even halted your own time. The period where you hid the possibility in your heart, not growing up, was useful.), and in the end, it seems Nemuro's use was over...did he have any further need to manipulate him?

But as I said, that may not be the best example because it's not like we know the truth of it either.