Epi_lepsia wrote:

Maarika wrote:

Also, the inital version of Utena.... pink uniform.
Saito has a strange taste in clothes and colours...

The pink uniform only appears in the 2 first volumes 8D yeah, it sucks, but Miki with normal hair it's even worse.

Man, why so much hate for the pink uniform? It suits her.

I really do like the Utena manga but I much prefer the series because of the surreal imagery and more sinister atmosphere in the Black Rose/Akio/ Apocalypse Arcs. In the manga I didn't like the way you only saw a little glimpse of Akio's and Anthy's physical realtionship and it wasn't elaborated on. There was something really sumptuous and grand about the series, whereas the manga was a little too dry and everyday for my taste. I really do need my surrealism and ego driven selfish relationships, however unrealstic they may be.

Something i have to say, I think the Movie manga is better than the actual movie in a lot of places.

Maarika wrote:

Also, the inital version of Utena.... pink uniform.
Saito has a strange taste in clothes and colours...

Utena: Is not pink, it's "rose" color
Me: It's the fucking same!!!!

My goodness!  No symbolism--shallow?  I must disagree.  It's shorter in every regard, leaving less time for nuance and less visual candy.  But the overall plotline is much tighter and very well executed.

They act a lot more like 14-year-olds, particularly Utena.  In the anime, I tend to regard everyone as being at least 3 years older than their nominal age.

I absolutely adore manga-Touga.  I tend to let manga-Touga color anime-Touga and ignore the prevailing Touga-hate.

[Manga Spoilers-ish]

The culmination of the engagement in a marriage ceremony...  The use of the named coffins when everyone ascends to the castle...  Anthy's despair...  Utena's sacrifice...  These elements of the story are much clearer and don't lose their symbolic value by virtue of having a stated purpose! 

My theory on the anime is that Utena was "chosen" due to her despair in that coffin echoing Himemiya's.  This recognition is what led the pair of them to Utena.  In the manga, this is stated, except the despair she echos is Dios's.  I love her transformation into a warrior angel, the echo of Dios and Akio's battle--except that Utena wins.

Everyone who has read Yasha's recent essay on Utena being Thanatos will recognize this moment.  To become the Prince, Utena must die.  The "symbolism"... the  underlying themes that reflect life... are still there.

My goodness!  She becomes god in that moment, if Akio is to be believed.  That's just beautiful and reminds me of a Tool song (at this particular moment, anyway). Laterualus Lyrics...9th down

[/ Manga Spoilers-ish]

That's just one instance because I have to run trim the Christmas tree at my parents' house, but for a fandom which prides itself on analytical thinking, it's a shame to see so many people disregarding the manga...  I completely agree that the anime is my favorite!  Anything without Swords of Hate (among other things) loses in my book!  But there are many wonderful things about the manga...

rhyaniwyn wrote:

My goodness!  No symbolism--shallow?

When did I say that? The lack of symbolism is not the problem I have with the manga.

I absolutely adore manga-Touga.  I tend to let manga-Touga color anime-Touga and ignore the prevailing Touga-hate.

Uh. What? Like every other character in the manga, he has no personality or depth whatsoever. He was Utena's slave. That about sums him up. o_O

[Manga Spoilers-ish]

The culmination of the engagement in a marriage ceremony...  The use of the named coffins when everyone ascends to the castle...  Anthy's despair...  Utena's sacrifice...

All of them shown in such simplicity and straightforwardness that I felt like Saito was mocking my intelligence.

I love her transformation into a warrior angel

OH EM GEE, UTENA GREW WINGS LIKE IN ALMOST EVERY OTHER SHOUJO CLICHE! How awesome is that?!

I'm one of those who far prefers the anime, because the anime is so brutally and bizzarely well-done and the manga just seems... quite tame, in comparison. Fluffy, even. I do, however, like the manga. It's just not what made me a fan(atic).

So, it's defend the anime time!

In the manga Utena's capacity for self-deception is much more evident. More false princes mis-lead her. We also learn more about her childhood and natural romanticism and see something more of why she was so lonely.

Granted, though I don't think that Utena's self-deception being more -overt- is a good thing in and of itself. Utena IMHO was beautifully done across the board: just enough understandable naivete and indecision to make her dilemmas fascinating. But the elaboration on her childhood was a welcome one.

Touga is less wicked....

How does that make him a better or more interesting character? I think it just makes him dryer. Anime Touga, with his cruel, selfish, but incomparably self-aware and perceptive nature, who, as he becomes more aware, transcends all that, is an incredibly well-drawn-out character and serves his purpose in Utena's overall scheme incredibly well. I really don't think that his becoming a "wiser, braver, and more upright person than Utena" is a good thing, either. Being wise, brave, and upright is Utena's job, not his; it's her (and Anthy's) story. His cruelty to Nanami also serves a great thematic purpose.

Juri, is less fun, but she also is more human. A Miki who actually tries to stand up for himself against Kozue is not to be regarded with contempt.

I don't think Juri is more human at all. I think her blindness, her melancholy and her devotion to Shiori is what makes her fascinating. Juri in love with a popular guy and Juri in love with her fragile (female) childhood friend makes a big difference in who she is; she's just waaaaay to cliche as she appears when in love with Touga. Very stock manga character. And again, the fact that Miki doesn't stand up to Kozue (whether he deserves contempt or not) makes him a lot more interesting because their relationship becomes more nuanced.

In the manga he has to work harder to keep Anthy's affection, and the consequences of his discarding her are more terrible, something resembling actual death.

You've got me with the consequences; that was good to see. I don't see how the complexity of Anthy and Akio's anime relationship is in any way lacking, so I'll pass on that.

I agree that a lot of what you're praising works well within the manga, but I really don't think that they're strengths in comparison to the anime because the anime is just different. In the anime, Utena's desire to be a princess is more interesting to me because it is a kind of deception. The purity of her original desire - not even to become a prince, but to save Anthy - obscured and corrupted by time/society strikes me as something very realistic and insightful.  I also think that Utena's desire to be a prince in relation to Akio, as it plays out in the manga, would have been distracting; I love that in the end, it's all about Utena wanting to save Anthy, because it makes the final episode so incredibly personal and poignant, and is also truer to the concept of being a prince. Thematically, it works a lot better.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and in this case what it mostly boils down to is taste. ^_~

Its getting to sound like that the manga Utena has been written by CLAMP or something the way they have been describing it.

Anthy is more of a door-mat in the beginning of the manga but that also makes her mis-treatment by the other Setokai more believable. They need her to be a mere thing to justify their mistreatment and she accommodates them. It's shown quite well when she gives addtional power to Touga's sword by thrusting it into her body; Touga states complacently that she is in no pain, she says nothing and he does not wait for her to say anything. It is a much more powerful scene than the smirk-provoking pseudo-fellatio she does in the anime.  Anyway she does turn into a real person about halfway through which is a lot faster than it happens in the anime. Her statement, "I want you to be happy, that is my will" is quite convincing.

Of course if you want to see Anthy really expressing her feelings, then the movie manga is best for that.

Last edited by brian (12-03-2006 07:32:11 PM)

One person said shallow, another person said less symbolism.  It was a general response. ;)

Again, let me say that there are inarguable facts.  The manga has less art, less character development of secondary characters, fewer secondary characters, and is just plain shorter. 

There's less meat, but there's also less fat--it's one person's vision, so it's a more coherent vision.  It's leaner, more focused.  But we don't have to take it by itself, we have all the other Utena versions to supplement and compare to.  That alone should make it interesting.

----------------------------
TOUGA

I don't think Touga in the manga is Utena's slave.  He does successfully manipulate her, as in the anime.  But when she defeats him the 2nd time around, he is inspired by her--he sees in her the same thing that Anthy sees in her (the thing that wakes her up in the manga and makes her take Utena's hand in the anime).  I don't think that makes him less interesting--especially because I believe he saw it in the anime too!

I felt like the reason he moved in wasn't so much a sudden slavish devotion as that he'd been impressed by her--much like he was in the anime--impressed, confused.  He wanted to observe her more closely, maybe figure out how she does what she does--probably with a view toward later manipulation.  However, since he's not stupid, spending that much time around her made him admire her to the point that he didn't want to manipulate her any further.  As he said himself, he came to *really* believe the best way to reach the castle was to follow her.

Even in the manga, he knows more about the duels--and he disapproves of many of Utena's choices (same as in the anime).  And not just out of jealousy!  Because he knows something she doesn't.  He'd hoped this brave, brilliant girl wouldn't be so easily sucked in.

I like assholes as much as the next girl, but I believe manga-Touga and anime-Touga are very similar in most regards.  The only difference is that manga-Touga is a little bit less attached to depravity and cruelty.  I think manga-Touga is a bit more mature, really.  But you might easily say he's more idealistic (which I tend to associate with immaturity...)  Basically, manga-Touga is a nicer guy.  A bit less of a player, a bit more empathetic, not inclined to want to walk in Akio's footsteps.  I don't think that makes him less interesting or shallow!  In fact, he really seems to have a dream in the manga, a drive... In the anime, he often just seems to be an Akio-in-training (no real dream...just a desire for power and control).

His character serves much the same purpose in both versions, overall.  The manga simply has less time to reinforce his moral ambiguity.  (And one might say the the anime overdid it...since the prevailing opinion I've seen on Touga is that he has more negatives than positives.)  It also speeds up and gives more evidence of his improved character after meeting Utena.

----------------------------

The other characters are very similar in most of their particulars (by which I mean comparing bulleted lists ;) ).  I like anime-Juri better, of course.  But she is shown to be a little less than shallow in the Ruka segment of the manga (and not, actually, in love with Touga).  I think her manga counterpart acts closer to her stated age...though, heck, people MY age still do what Juri does in the manga.  I think manga-Miki is more assertive, and I like that.   I'm not overly saddened by the lack of some of the other secondary characters in the manga.  I can enjoy them in the anime.  (One of the most important things in planning a story is not to try to do too much, or do things that the medium won't support.  Saito didn't make either of those mistakes here.)

And I must, at this point, say that I don't think that there is any particular virtue in ambiguity and misdirection.  Sometimes the simplest words are the most compelling, yes?

Utena has a choice...she can seek to become a Prince and die, or she can become the End of the World and live a jaded, selfish life (condemning Anthy to death and the world to Akio's revolution).  I believe some of the central messages are much clearer in this version... 

One of those messages is that "becoming an adult" is hard.  That, in some ways, you are faced with a terrible choice as you "grow up."  You can hold on to your dreams, your ideals, your faith--and you will suffer and die a million little deaths.  The world is cruel and there are lots of people out there who will just be trying to use you without regard to any pain they will cause.  Or you can abandon that Utena-self to better operate in the world, serve your pleasures, and save yourself the torment of trying to live nobly in a world that doesn't appreciate it...trying to be a hero in a world that doesn't want heroes...trying to be good and fair in a world that is anything but that.

The first choice is hard...very hard.  And most people won't even appreciate it.  But there's a chance you will inspire one or two people.  And then you will have changed the world...just a very little bit.  Change yourself, change the world.

This message is easier to see in the manga (does that make it less important? I think not!).  Because only Anthy and Touga remember Utena--and they are changed even though Anthy says the revolution has yet to occur.

That's one of the reasons I love this series so much...I read some interview with Ikuhara where he said something about how young people let society's expectations drain all the dreams and creativity out of them as they get older...and he wanted to tell a story that would inspire them.  [Paraphrasing from like 6 years ago.]  Utena is compelling because that is a struggle so many people identify with...  And the manga gets that message across--maybe stronger in some ways.  So, yeah, I love the anime more, but the manga still inspires me.

Regarding the religious/mythological connotations...well, I may have mentioned my infatuation with Joseph Campbell.  I have a heck of a lot of homework to do this evening, though, so let me think about that some other time.

Sanguine_Rose wrote:

Something i have to say, I think the Movie manga is better than the actual movie in a lot of places.

I agree with that, the Movie manga was full of symbolism and while it did follow the movie's storyline, it was somewhat less confusing. Utena or no one else turns into a car, however a similiar concept is used in the manga where Utena gets buried under the roses, leaving everything to Anthy. Another thing I liked a lot was Touga. He's story was much more entwined with Utena's and the whole drowning scene was much more realistic because in the manga it was Utena herself who was about to drown. Also, it seems that Utena is the only one who can't realise that Touga was dead (as Saionji says during his duel, "Chivalry is dead!"). Anthy is much better in the manga too than in the movie. It seemed to me that she had more depth. Movie Anthy seemed a bit incomplete to me. And in the manga she actually kills Akio! It's not really shown how she did it, but based on all the blood, I'd say she stabbed him. That still doesn't change the fact that Anthy's brother dies in quite pathetic ways in the Movie versions.
Despite that, I enjoy both the movie and the movie manga.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Maybe brian could help.  I didn't feel the need to say anything about Anthy because he did such a good job. ;)

Thanks. I doubt that I can help very much.

In the manga Anthy says something that is very mysterious about the original Dios, something to the effect that her original fate was to die and from the time Dios chose to save her he became saddled with the duties and responsibilities of a Prince. In some book written by one of the disciples of Joseph Campbell there was a description of exactly that and the psychological principle that it embodied, and now I cannot find it. It was really interesting but I lost the citation. I am still keeping my eyes open, but if someone else knows anything it would be great to hear it.

I would still want the manga for two reasons

1/ To decide for myself how good or bad the manga Utena series really is.

2/ Because I want to be able to scan the pictures and edit them for my own pleasure and also for donation purposes to the Empty Movement site.