also she doesn't believe in Miracles to be exact which is kind of bullshit when you consider the point of Revolution by that point is to grant miracles.

I wonder.

And to be fair, Juri has a reason for her poor communication skills. Confessing your love for someone is hard enough in the first place, but when it's a homosexual crush, there's also all that stigma involved (even if a lot of girls seems to be gay for Juri). Also, I think Juri likes being in control (even though a part of her seems rather masochistic, so I think in a way she gets off on the drama), and admitting her love for Shiori would tip the power in favor of Shiori. And we all saw what happened when Shiori did find out about her "power over Juri."

I'll admit I'm not sure how I feel about the whole Ruka-thing, however. It felt a little tacked-on.

Last edited by Lurv (07-01-2013 09:50:37 PM)

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but) Are you calling Shiori hackneyed? Waaaah!?! Shiori is filled with depth, novelty, and frills.

Juri and Shiori don't have great progress in the series, no, but most don't. There is progress, hesitance, and regression. They're trapped in their dynamics. Even, when we look at the movie, Juri has taken the opposite approach from the TV series, and yet, remains trapped, all the same, by her inability to see past the range of Shiori. She's missing the forest for the trees and the castle beyond them. But it's by their arrested dynamic that we can gauge Utena's progress. Pretty much every recurring character is suspended in SKU, tragically and disappointingly, but they always will be, because it is tragedy. We wouldn't cheer so much for Utena or Anthy getting out if it was easy and everyone did it.

Within the boundaries they self-support, however, and in the possibility beyond those that we, the audience, can see, there's a lot going on with Shiori and Juri, together and individually, and in relation to other characters.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

(Yeah, it's a Juri thread, but) Are you calling Shiori hackneyed? Waaaah!?! Shiori is filled with depth, novelty, and frills.

No theres no depth to her character at all, she is the least develop of the sidecast and ultimately the character arc around her and juri is probably the weakest in show; everything about their character arc is a pretentious and Hackeyed attempt at deconstructing a love triangle; on par with Evangelion's hamfisted and pretentious attempt at character study and Visual symbolism.

Mainly because Juri herself is a 2 dimensional character and shiori barely has a personality overall; Juri's is all serious and angsty, that all we see out of her character. Shiori has a low self-esteem, she is a glorified plot point overall with a non-existent personality; So attempting to give both of them along with ruka a sense of depth is Forced and Hackeyed writing. The writers are attempting to forcing these shallow(and ultimately unrelatable) character onto us with their Melodramatic(and Tack on) storytelling.

Oh look, it's another Rosesareaweseome101 complaint thread. Don't bother to make any arguments people, they're sure to be brushed off and ignored just like what happened last time.

Aelanie wrote:

Oh look, it's another Rosesareaweseome101 complaint thread. Don't bother to make any arguments people, they're sure to be brushed off and ignored just like what happened last time.

Might as well lock this thread.

Entitlement issues has always been a problem with me when comes to posting in these forums, The last forum I invested Zelda Universe(The fan site) that was a horrible experience for me after my 1st mouth of posting, if you want a example of why, read my posts as Zeldafan888 up until the release of Skyward Sword, My attitude was incredibly Fanboyish and I was the kind of person who would not accept the opinions of others; the result was 2 bans one for flaming and the other for posting erotic material(fanfiction and other reasons. It got to the point where I stop posting on there because of it.

I think it because of the fact that I was Diagnose with Autism or because of my age(I was 14 year back then) probably the Former.
I've learned a lot since then when it comes to other people's opinions.

That being said I should probably move on from doing these kind of threads because it ruining my reputation in these Forums

Either way, we're not going to come down on you for having unpopular opinions. If you want to learn how to express them better, contact myself, Sat, or DD, and we'll do our best to help you.

Back on topic!

So I don't really post in Juri/Shiori/Ruka threads often, and the reason is that I find myself dangerously close to thinking they're irrelevant. I know this isn't the case, and that for a lot of people that whole group is very relevant and very close to their hearts. I always find myself wanting to argue the whys and wherefores of my opinion against theirs, and since we all know I have a tendency to express myself strongly, I've always figured that I'd better just leave it alone before I stomped on someone's feelings.

However...

I've never understood the reasons people like Juri, and only once, for a few minutes, have I ever understood the reasons someone liked Shiori-- RoseCon NOLA, when I asked dollface to explain Shiori to me and for a few bright moments it stuck! And then I lost it.

So what I'm saying here is... why? What's so likable about them? What do you identify with? I never find any common ground with them-- what people call complexity is, to me, just fence-sitting and angst. I'd really like to get this, because I really hate being biased, even toward my own point of view. Juri and Shiori have been, for many years, just the parts of the show that I skip getting to the "good stuff" and that's just not fair.

Convince me. I want you to do it. Maybe you can change my mind, cause goodness knows, I want it to be changed.





(Caveat: I understand Ruka, because he tried to force a decision... and I also know he's usually not looked on favorably.)


So... yeah. Why should I not skip these episodes? What's so great about Juri and Shiori?

With respect, "convince me of things I don't yet believe" is essentially is asking someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, and is almost never successful even when they've put forth their best and most strenuous efforts. With regard to Juri, I'll say - or rather repeat - only this:

... the duels, even from the beginning of the show, aren't really about a contest of sword skill, it's a clash of wills. The strongest willed ALWAYS wins, and that's why Utena can win with ease over kendo stars, fencing club members, etc. etc. None of that matters. It's about the steel in your spirit, not your blade.

And this is also why Juri is the only one that Utena never technically defeats. Juri is the only Duelist besides Utena whose will is truly strong, and who resists the temptations that Akio plies the other Duelists with in his End of the World role. Even as Ruka is trying to tempt Juri with the power to obtain anything, she renounces it, saying she needs nothing but her own strength. In Utena, the people who lust after power the least are the ones who have it within them most. That's why Juri was undeniably Utena's most dangerous opponent.

Or rather, that Juri was perhaps the second most promising candidate to be Akio's sacrifice. Do I think Juri could've spiritually overpowered Akio as Utena did? Without a doubt. But, could she have cried tears of princely compassion and opened the gate? I'm uncertain. Juri is at bottom a good and righteous person, but she is proud, and can be cruel, as she is to Anthy herself early in the show. (I believe that of all the Duelists, Juri had by far the best insight into who and what Anthy truly was. She was not fooled by the Rose Bride.) Yet, it's possible she could've been moved by the sight of Anthy at that time. It would've been very interesting to see her in that situation.

Juri can indeed be haughty and cold at times, but she is also strong, righteous, and honorable. Unlike almost all the other duelists, she has no flaw or vice to be exploited. Her only weakness is an inability to let go of a tragic, hopeless love, and such an honest and sincere fault is not something Akio could successfully twist to his uses. That - and the appearance of a more easily manipulated candidate in Utena - are the reasons she was spared being put in that position.

I love her strength, her integrity, and her ability to endure her pain stoically, day by day.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-16-2013 01:14:07 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

@Yasha: I've come to like Juri more than I used to.  And you know why?  Because she reminds me of you.

Ack! Really?

Okay, I read the rest of your post and the way you see it makes sense to me, but for some reason I'm feeling like a lot of that isn't shown in her episodes. Maybe I need to rewatch them and see exactly what's in them. The comparison between Utena's love for Anthy and her love for Shiori was something I never gave her credit for doing; in my eyes, it was always a mark against her for being mistaken about it. I guess I don't give her, myself, or anyone, credit for trying to put themselves in another's shoes when they turn out to be wrong, and I should rethink that. That's a pretty awful way to see things-- that you're only worth something if you succeed.

Wait, that's a pretty Touga/Saionji way to see things. Even more

Also, I never thought of her as stepping out of her experiences and having perspective on them. I'd like you to expand on that, if possible, because I've always considered that one point in Touga's arc where he sees that he's being manipulated and goes along with it because he has no choice to be the only point where that happens, but if you say it's true, it probably is and I just missed something (a huge something ).

One thing, though... isn't treating Shiori like the red button and nothing else a little bit... I dunno. That's a pretty large chunk of Juri's motivation and a whole person in her arc; I can't really look at Shiori as being only the trigger for Juri to act like a teenager.

Aelanie wrote:

With respect, "convince me of things I don't yet believe" is essentially is asking someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, and is almost never successful even when they've put forth their best and most strenuous efforts.

Understood, and no offense taken, but I think most times the people who say "convince me" are actually actively trying not to be convinced even though they say they're open to it, and that's what causes it to be strenuous. I've done this myself (I know, I'm a bad person), but that's not what's happening here. I want to understand, and I need help to do it, because even if I remind sat of Juri, I don't natively speak her language the way I do with the Touga/Saionji/Nanami triangle and the Akio/Utena/Anthy triangle. I intend, and hope I've shown so far, an active engagement with the ideas rather than a passive, smug, "Oh yeah? Convince me." attitude.

Also, who doesn't like to talk about why their favorite character is awesome? If you let me, I'd go on all day about mine, even after so long

Aelanie wrote:

With regard to Juri, I'll say - or rather repeat - only this:

... the duels, even from the beginning of the show, aren't really about a contest of sword skill, it's a clash of wills. The strongest willed ALWAYS wins, and that's why Utena can win with ease over kendo stars, fencing club members, etc. etc. None of that matters. It's about the steel in your spirit, not your blade.

And this is also why Juri is the only one that Utena never technically defeats. Juri is the only Duelist besides Utena whose will is truly strong, and who resists the temptations that Akio plies the other Duelists with in his End of the World role. Even as Ruka is trying to tempt Juri with the power to obtain anything, she renounces it, saying she needs nothing but her own strength. In Utena, the people who lust after power the least are the ones who have it within them most. That's why Juri was undeniably Utena's most dangerous opponent.

Or rather, that Juri was perhaps the second most promising candidate to be Akio's sacrifice. Do I think Juri could've spiritually overpowered Akio as Utena did? Without a doubt. But, could she have cried tears of princely compassion and opened the gate? I'm uncertain. Juri is at bottom a good and righteous person, but she is proud, and can be cruel, as she is to Anthy herself early in the show. (I believe that of all the Duelists, Juri had by far the best insight into who and what Anthy truly was. She was not fooled by the Rose Bride.) Yet, it's possible she could've been moved by the sight of Anthy at that time. It would've been very interesting to see her in that situation.

As far as Anthy goes, I never thought of her as seeing Anthy for what she was, but that's true, isn't it? I hadn't considered it too deeply because my mind immediately classified that as petty, and I dislike that sort of behavior. But you're right, it's a reaction to the fact that she knows Anthy is manipulating her, and I know this is true because Juri wouldn't slap Shiori. Shiori would be unthinkingly doing something like that, but with Anthy it's deliberate.

Huh.

Also the idea that she could have been a prince is definitely interesting. I've seen that idea come around before, and I'd love to see a fic someday (I can remember at least one existing, but I don't know if it's still floating around somewhere). I do think she's too cold to have empathy for Anthy, though. Anthy isn't innocent, and innocence is the major reason that Juri doesn't hate Shiori.

I guess that's another reason that I can never quite get a handle on Juri by myself. I'd feel exactly the opposite about that sort of situation; innocence is just ignorance. Give me knowledge any day. In that sense, I respect her coldness to Shiori, but the attachment to her escapes me.

Aelanie wrote:

Juri can indeed be haughty and cold at times, but she is also strong, righteous, and honorable. Unlike almost all the other duelists, she has no flaw or vice to be exploited. Her only weakness is an inability to let go of a tragic, hopeless love, and such an honest and sincere fault is not something Akio could successfully twist to his uses. That - and the appearance of a more easily manipulated candidate in Utena - are the reasons she was spared being put in that position.

I love her strength, her integrity, and her ability to endure her pain stoically, day by day.

I have to ask here, because this is the crux of why Juri escapes my comprehension-- doesn't she create her own pain? It always seemed to me that she was in a bondage of her own making, and that if she wanted, she could have let go and stepped out of it. I've been in situations like hers, but my reaction was to murder my feelings as swiftly and thoroughly as possible to avoid that constant tension and pain. I agree that she's strong to be able to withstand it, but at the same time, why doesn't she just kill her feelings? I am honestly confused by this. Can someone explain it to me? You may have to use small words

I know, I'm asking for a lot there, so it's okay if no one wants to address it. It's a personality issue, not just an issue with Juri.

Lurv wrote:

It actually took Juri some time to grow on me as well. Like I thought, yeah, she's strong and talented and all, but why is she so obsessed with Shiori? Then I realized that she is a teenager, and even adults can act irrationally when it comes to love (or desire). And Juri even realizes how foolish it is of her to act that way, even though it takes her a while to break free. I still don't love her, but I can sympathize with her and see why people find her so admirable.

Again, this is the hill I'm having a hard time climbing. Why do people act that way and put themselves through that much pain for nothing?

tl;dr: I have some major blind spots when it comes to my understanding of people, and Juri lands in a lot of them.

Yasha wrote:

I have to ask here, because this is the crux of why Juri escapes my comprehension-- doesn't she create her own pain? It always seemed to me that she was in a bondage of her own making, and that if she wanted, she could have let go and stepped out of it. I've been in situations like hers, but my reaction was to murder my feelings as swiftly and thoroughly as possible to avoid that constant tension and pain. I agree that she's strong to be able to withstand it, but at the same time, why doesn't she just kill her feelings? I am honestly confused by this.

Let's be honest...don't we usually make our own pain? And it's not as if she herself knows the reason. Remember that she even remarks aloud to both herself and Utena during the badminton scene: "I wonder why. Why can't I just set these feelings free?" You can't expect her to understand yet. For all her strengths, she is still very young.

But I know the reason, or can guess. If perhaps you don't already know...sometimes, the endurance of pain can be a kind of self-loyalty. It's a loyalty to our own feelings, our own convictions, our own nature and our own past. In an uncharitable mood it might not be unfair to call it a kind of "masochism", or even more unflatteringly a self-indulgent martyrdom, but humans truly do treasure up their wounds and find identity and even strength in carrying them through life.

It's rare for me to be able to speak from personal experience, but I can speak to this one. I was in love once. My first love, my only real love. In time she left me, and I only found out, much later, that she had grown tired of me and had probably been unfaithful to me even during the time we had been together. But I still look back on those days with longing. I still love and long to return to those days and that person I was happy with for a short time back then. Yes, I still love her. I desire no other, and will have no other. Ever.

Is that sensible? No it isn't, and truthfully it's not as if I actually would go back to that - her - now even if I could. But these thoughts and feelings are part of the weave of my life, and I wouldn't be who I am if I could cast that aside so easily.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-17-2013 12:11:51 AM)

satyreyes wrote:

In context, I don't think Juri is trying to say that Utena loves Anthy romantically, like Juri loves Shiori (though that's how Utena seems to hear it).

Although this is stepping into subjects beyond the scope of this thread, I'm afraid I must vehemently disagree on that point.

Juri is the only other female character in the show who is anything like a relatable "equal" to Utena, and indeed, Ikuhara states that that was intended. Her importance in this role, and the unique influence it gives her over what occurs, cannot be overstated.

In the same way that I believe Juri was the one who most clearly discerned what Anthy was behind the vapid-doll mask of the Rose Bride, so too was she able to correctly discern the nature of Utena's love - romantic love - for Anthy. Come on. Who would know better than she? She of all people would be the one to perceive that Utena was love with another girl. Utena tries to deny it, but her equivocations quickly run out of steam. She was caught, and they both know it.

That most pointed and knowing of questions, asked by the sharp and experienced Juri, is what makes Utena realize what her feelings are, and that to me is what sets the stage for everything that comes after. It is one of the most pivotal moments of the show. It's also an echo of the moment when Juri lent Utena her sword before facing Touga and taking Anthy back at the end of the Student Council arc. Both times, it is Juri's comradeship as a relatable female equal that allows Utena to move forward. Both times, her intervention is what gives Utena direction and an understanding of what she really wants.

And that is yet another reason I love Juri. Utena couldn't have done it without her. It's not for no reason that in the Movie, she was the one driving the rescue vehicle.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-17-2013 07:54:04 AM)

satyreyes wrote:

These explanations aren't mutually exclusive, of course.

I like to think it's a bit of both, yes.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

As far as Juri's potential as a duelist and the parallels between her relationship with Shiori and Utena's with Anthy, I think that maybe the thing that Juri is really stuck on is her resentment.  She can't let go of her expectations that Shiori "should" have feelings that complement her own, and so resents and blames Shiori for this perceived fault-- note how disparagingly she compares Utena to Shiori before their first duel, and how she refuses to accept Shiori's apology before Shiori's Black Rose duel.  Her regard for Shiori might be unconditional, but it isn't entirely positive.  This might be what Utena is getting at when she implies that Juri's love for Shiori isn't "pure," but she does so while backpedaling, probably because she doesn't trust her own intuitive understanding of the situation and doesn't want to insult Juri.

That's interesting.  I had read it as Utena denying that she was romantically attached to Anthy as Juri is to Shiori, but maybe we shouldn't give Utena that much credit for gaydar.   Maybe she is referring to Juri's mixed feelings about Shiori.  Utena's feelings about Anthy, however, certainly are profoundly mixed at just this moment, which gives a different reading to her trailing off.  It's an interesting point.  I may go listen to the Japanese later and see if I can pull any nuance out of the conversation, if no one beats me to it.  (Please, someone, beat me to it.  I probably have the least operational Japanese of any initiate on IRG. )

Last edited by satyreyes (08-17-2013 12:41:33 PM)