Moving discussion started here: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=103

Quotes!  Or "The discussion to date..."

Dani wrote:

dollface wrote:

I've had Anthy fans say Shiori hurt Juri, but Anthy tried to KILL Utena.

I don't agree that Anthy intended to kill Utena. She gave her a painful stabbing very much away from vital organs. I think she was trying to save Utena from the swords that would have struck Utena had she beaten Akio in the duel and freed Anthy. However, Utena did it anyway.

A Day Without Me wrote:

Hmm, just for the record, I'm a firm believer in the Kinsey Scale. This would make everyone at least a little bi, but people can be 99.9999% hetero or homo. I'm not trying to tell straight or gay people that they are actually actively attracted to both genders. But, after all, what do you fall in love with? A person, or their gender?

But, yeah, I don't think Juri's a lesbian. I'm also one of the few people, it seems, that think Utena isn't bi - I really don't think she and Anthy are involved.

Syna wrote:

those I'd consider without-a-doubt "bi" are Utena, Anthy

[i]sexual orientation is never, ever addressed in Utena! EVER! except in a really obviously facetious remark by Touga to Nanami. In a show with so much Gay, you'd think it would be, and it just isn't. Gender is never ever a factor in why anyone is attracted to anyone except maybe Utena's attraction to Akio/Touga as a Prince (and I'd argue that that's her being confused, given what her true memory of the encounter with the prince is). Just as, in the end, it isn't a factor in who serves as whose Rose Bride in the duels. I interpret this as meaning it's a non-issue.

Ragnarok wrote:

If you're looking for flatout statements of sexual orientation you aren't going to find them in Utena. This is a very sexual series with innuendo up the ying-yang, but it's never brought up verbally. At least half of everything we 'know' about the series is due to interpretatoin of symbolism and metaphor.

It's easy enough to say "Utena and Anthy don't have sex during the series." Granted, there's no proof that they do. There isn't any proof that Touga and Akio do anything together beyond lying on the same bed with their shirts open. And it's easy enough to state that Utena doesn't show any sexual attraction to Anthy throughout the series because it's just not something you'd see blatantly. But I can't imagine anyone claiming there are no lesbian overtones in Utena and Anthy's relationship.

Syna wrote:

The often very sexual Anthy/Utena artwork, even if they aren't together in the series (which I have my own opinions about, but I'm not going into it).

Blade wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

But I can't imagine anyone claiming there are no lesbian overtones in Utena and Anthy's relationship.

Except Utena, who says flat-out, several times through the series, including near the very end, that there's no lesbian overtones in Utena and Anthy's relationship.

Syna wrote:

*sigh* OK, here we go.

Here's my opinion on the matter. I think it's a little stubborn to say that all the artwork, the introduction, the conclusion of each episode of the series -- all of which have undeniable and often very sexual Anthy/Utena overtones and at least prove, to me, that the series is very very gay-friendly -- don't mean anything.

I think the fact that Anthy and Utena are never together in the series is meant to differentiate them from every other person in the series with a romantic interest. Unlike everyone else, there's no pining, no unrequited love. Unlike everyone else, they spend time together, constantly. Unlike everyone else, their relationship is based on trust and affection, and as a result of their relationship, the both of them are not stunted, not kept from growing, not held back in a spiderweb of angst and nostalgia and desperate desire to keep the past alive. And unlike everyone else, they have a true and meaningful friendship.

I think the fact they aren't together serves a thematic purpose, to show the essential purity of their relationship -- not to make us say "they don't get together."  Especially when Utena is Anthy taking her relationship with Dios, and her romantic feelings for him, and making something positive out of it. It's not that big of a stretch to go, "Well, in this equation, Utena = prince, Anthy = princess, therefore, they'll be romantically involved." That's the inevitable implication.

Blade wrote:

I disagree, actually. Utena and Anthy don't have that sort of relationship until very late in the series (pretty much the last two episodes; arguably only the last episode). Utena thinks they do, but she is deluding herself about her own motives and assuming too much about Anthy's... a fact she flat-out admits late in the series.

I think it does indeed serve a thematic purpose.

I think it continues to serve that thematic purpose just fine even if Utena does not desire to have sex with Anthy.  I think the love they have for each other, and sex, are not mutually inclusive. I'd actually say "love and sex are not mutually inclusive" is one of the points the series likes to make.

Ragnarok wrote:

Actually Utena admits this in episode 12 and spends the next two arcs without telling Anthy what's best for her. Of course she still thinks she knows what's best for Anthy and when the opportunity presents itself to 'save' her, Utena is set to take it. Also in episode 12 we get two scenes that heavily imply Anthy has come to care for Utena. (Once when she imagines Utena while alone at the council balcony and during the duel with Touga.) After the Black Rose arc Anthy tries a few times to open up to Utena, only to stop herself. What Utena admits in the last two episodes is that she had been trying to save Anthy for the wrong reasons and that she was more interested in the ideal of being a prince than doing what a prince ought to. Friendships aren't instantaneous, no, but they develope over time and by the end of the first arc it's safe to classify Utena and Anthy as good friends. By the end of the series they have a very strong bond between them which has grown from the very start. The very last thing we see in the series is a picture of Anthy and Utena standing together with Akio cut out of the picture.

Syna wrote:

Where does Utena discuss attractions to the same gender, outside of the whole prince context (which I would say is pretty damn clearly subverted) and the final comment about Anthy? (Which, tellingly, isn't at this point, "Oh, no, I don't like Anthy because I'm not gay," but "our relationship is different than that.") I certainly don't think, given, again, her reaction to Juri's love, that she "questions" it.

I would agree, but I would also say that regardless of whether or not it's "canonical," the fact that they're so heavily implied indicates that the series is, at least, gay-friendly, and Anthy and Utena being attracted to women is perfectly in keeping with their characters.

I would seriously doubt the creators would release an official picture like <a href="http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/maison/UtenaAnthy37.jpg">this</a> if the notion of Anthy/Utena was not free to be seriously and plausibly entertained.

Blade wrote:

I don't deny they're friends and that their friendship grows over the course of the series. I'm just saying it hasn't reached that pure ideal that the original poster talked about until the very end. Until then, in fact, it's NOT based on trust or truth; both of them are lying to each other and themselves and hiding things from the other.

One of my favourite moments with Utena remains her reaction when she realises that Anthy is sleeping with Akio: jealousy. It's so human, since Utena so has not the slightest moral justification to be jealous of Anthy there. But if they had the sort of pure true and meaningful relationship then, that isn't what Utena would have reacted like.

Ragnarok wrote:

They're as much hiding things from themselves as each other. Anthy has a lot of secrets from Utena, but the reason she won't come clean is because she doesn't want to admit to herself that Utena deserves to know. She wants to believe it's all an act and therefore she has no moral dilemma. Whereas Utena is open and honest about everybody's problems but her own, to the point where she doesn't realize she has any.

I'm not sure what you're implying Utena's reaction should be upon seeing Anthy and Akio together. Yes she has a very human and very unjustified jealousy. But this isn't because she and Anthy aren't true best friends. There's no friendship out there that is immune to negative emotions or misunderstandings. This discovery shakes thie friendship that Utena and Anthy have, but it doesn't destroy it. When Anthy jumps from the top of the tower and Utena pulls her back they patch things up and it does strengthen their bond. It doesn't give them a perfect relationship, though.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I never read Utena and Anthy as having a sexual relationship either.  I don't usually say anything about it, since there's such a compelling argument to be made for the alternative...  But I think that's ultimately a little too simplistic.  I think the reason for the fairly ambiguous sexuality and gender roles are to encourage the viewer to question the validity of their assumptions-- Regarding sexual mores, etc.  That being the case, it's not like it's wrong to read homosexuality into anyone, because there's definitely a message on the subject.  But it's not necessary to compartmentalize any character to read that message.

And any 'inevitability' based on the Prince/Princess roles gives a greater reason to question assumptions you might be tempted to make.  It's consistently used as a symbolic tool while simultaneously questioning its own relevance.

A Day Without Me wrote:

Y'know, I also have always regarded Utena and Anthy as being extremely close friends - I think they love each other, but not in a romantic sense. People can argue that this conversation between Utena and Juri proves that Utena is in denial over her relationship to Anthy, but I think she's just telling it how it is - her love for Anthy is the love of a friend for another friend, devoid of sexual feelings. And, I know I'm gonna cop it for this statement, but I also don't think that in the movie they are truly involved in a romantic manner, either, despite the blatant hints at it.

And as for series art that was created and doesn't show up in the actual animation - well, picturing Anthy and Utena together in suggestive ways sells more copies, really. I think that portion boils down to simple capitalism.

Syna wrote:

Re: Anthy/Utena: I don't want to give the wrong impression, so... first, I don't think their relationship is, at all, perfect, and I think there was plenty lying and selfishness involved to be sure, but I think that only lends to the poignancy of their relationship in the end, and serves the end of a greater theme of purity spite of a dirty, impure world. If they were -just- perfect friends, they wouldn't be nearly as realistic, and I wouldn't give a damn about them.

Second, I love that they just love each other in the actual series. I love that they're just wonderful friends. I'm a sucker for this stuff: I get misty-eyed when I think about their True, Pure Friendship and all that sort of thing. I think that's the intended reaction. I think the series is better for their not getting together within it.

But I don't think such feelings are mutually exclusive at all to romantic ones, is all. Romance can (and often should) be based on friendship, imho. I don't see why romance couldn't develop from that.

And, I know I'm gonna cop it for this statement, but I also don't think that in the movie they are truly involved in a romantic manner, either, despite the blatant hints at it.

"Hints"... like kissing naked? emot-biggrin

I kid. My only point was, when I brought up the artwork and such, that it's plausible. It's definitely an option if you want to go there, it's not out-of-character. I didn't mean to say, "Anthy and Utena absolutely get together." I meant to say, "It's not considered an unlikely or improbable thing by the creators -- it's perfectly within keeping with their characters." They aren't going to release stuff like that if they don't want to encourage an implication there, right? If you like to think of them as friends, though, go right ahead. I don't think there's a wrong answer here at all; I think it's understandable and plausible to think of it either way.

(And I wouldn't THINK it would just be capitalism -- I mean, I'm sure that's a factor, but to my knowledge, yuri isn't the easiest way to get sales with a shoujo audience, right?)

A Day Without Me wrote:

Oh, I don't think they have a perfect friendship at all - who really does, anyway? But I think they certainly have a very strong one by the end of the series.

No, the yuri wouldn't pull in the shoujo audience, but theoretically they should already be there - the yuri would pull in people who wouldn't necessarily watch a shoujo to begin with, so it'd just be adding to the audience who're already gonna watch.

A Day Without Me wrote:

God, I'm gonna get a rep for being a gayophobe when I'm not  for being so... not opposed, but that's the best word I can come up with, to the idea of a romantic relationship between Anthy and Utena. But I really think that's the only coupling you can't convince me on that is of the gay persuasion.

Syna wrote:

This is true, but to that I would respond that it was in a series of images that played with lots of different pairings, and it’s like… two pictures, compared to the plentiful (and sometimes outright sexual, as opposed to just suggestive) Anthy/Utena. I agree about the fanservice element, though I think personally this extends beyond fanservice. Again, though, please don’t interpret my pointing to them as “If you believe Anthy and Utena are only friends, you’re in denial.” No. I’m just saying that their getting together is implicated strongly – not only in the artwork, but in the opening sequence and the Apocalypse arc’s closing sequence – and that there’s nothing in canon to suggest they get together or they don’t. Both are free game; a romance is just an open possibility, is all, and one which is even promoted to some degree. If you prefer to think of them as friends, by all means. (In the series, that is. I’m not sure how you dodge this in the movie, but maybe I’m just too pleased at naked girls kissing to see something. emot-biggrin)

So, what is Utena & Anthy's relationship?  Why do you think so?  How do you identify with it?  What relevance do the different mediums (and artwork) have to the debate?

This might be dead, but I had at least one post more to make on the subject, and we are beating poor Shiori to death...