I assume that everything Anthy says before episode 12 (and really throughout the show, but especially before episode 12) is insincere until proven otherwise.  But this line is particularly fun because of the context.  Anthy says she wants to be able to cook like Wakaba.  But the lunch Wakaba brought for Utena that day was a tray of prepackaged instant food.  She barely cooked it at all.  A moment later, Anthy joined them with an enormous, three-tiered bento box with takoyaki and yakisoba.  Wakaba was impressed.  We don't learn explicitly whether Anthy cooked it herself, but even if she didn't, it's still strange that she compares her cooking skills unfavorably to those of an instant chef.

On the surface, this just goes to show that Anthy is pulling people's strings.  It doesn't matter that Wakaba isn't actually a better cook than Anthy if all Anthy is doing is trying to get a rise out of Touga.  From that point of view, Anthy's line only makes sense if she's being manipulative.

But deeper down -- somewhere Anthy herself is probably not aware of -- some sincerity might be showing through here.  Wakaba made an instant lunch, but she made it with love.  She brags about the time she put into arranging it to make it look delicious.  Even if it isn't as fancy as Anthy's, Wakaba's lunch represents her genuine care for the person she cooked for.  It may be that Anthy envies that quality, and on some level that's what Anthy means when she says she wants to cook like Wakaba.

I find Anthy in particular to be in the lying part for the whole season, because Akio is pretty much using her and she is obsessed with pleasing him, until she sees Utena's genuine try to save her in the end, and she realizes that she lives in a lie and she breaks free.

Episode 12 stands out to me because we're able to see through Anthy's eyes at moments when she has no one to manipulate. Touga leaves her alone at lunch, and she looks across the table and imagines Utena there. That's not manipulation, that's actually a pang of wishful thinking. During the duel, the way Utena fights suddenly and forcefully reminds her of Dios, so powerfully that she cries, even though no one is watching her. Utena has connected with the real Anthy.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Anthy's behavior towards Utena ever becomes genuine. If caring about someone is an unfamiliar emotion, it can be scary: now you have to fear that you'll lose them, or that they'll grow to despise you. And one reaction to that fear is to actually become despicable, so that when they inevitably reject you, you feel like you had some agency over it.

Anthy is very much capable of that, or of suppressing her feelings almost entirely. But she has one advantage: a good role model. It is easy to read moments like the off-script sword swap in Episode 25 as betokening real partisanship towards Utena, an indication that Anthy is changing and trying to help. There are many ways to read that scene, and the cantarella/suicide scene, and the many bedtime conversation scenes... and after more than a decade of loving this show I still don't know what interpretation is best.

My best guess: Anthy is playing her part to the end. She is changing, but that change is internal. Her behavior towards Utena is always artificial - but that doesn't mean that grains of sincerity never slip out by accident. I think the cantarella/suicide scene is intended to manipulate, but all Anthy had to do was get Utena to duel; she didn't have to choose a mode of manipulation where she actually got to share her real pains and fears with Utena. A mode where she could act as desperate as she felt. I can't help seeing that scene, on some level, as a real cry for help, for Utena to be Dios for real.  Anthy would deny this, because she has to believe that she's abandoned hope in order to play her role and avoid even more pain as her hope is squashed. But it's a straaange way to manipulate Utena if she's actually feeling indifferent about her. And this breakdown of the boundary between sincere and artificial is all over the place. I think that's how Anthy can grow, can act more and more truly, and yet always be acting according to plan.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Although there's a scary thought I've never had before.  Jesus, what if leaving Ohtori is another manipulative tactic--what if Anthy didn't change at all and she did that just to get at Akio?  *shiver*

Nah   She has internal monologue as she's about to leave, the last (pre-credits) lines of the show:

Anthy:  Now it's my turn to go to you.
Anthy:  No matter where you are, I'll find you for sure.
Anthy:  Wait for me, Utena.

She's thinking of the future, not the past.  Her eyes are forward.  She hesitates for a moment on the threshold -- takes just a moment longer to get her suitcase together than necessary -- then strides across.  Then we have the whole credits, two straight minutes of staring at Anthy's back: she doesn't stop or look back once, as if the writers are making a point.  I'm sure that Anthy will at times struggle with sincerity versus manipulation for her whole life, but I don't think this is one of those times.  I think she is sincerely done with Akio and Ohtori Academy. 

Last edited by satyreyes (07-10-2015 01:57:08 AM)

Touga's another big reason for this thread. I feel like with Akio it's a little more overt that he's being manipulative almost all the time. There's a few moments here and there, though. But Touga, it can be hard to tell. I think it's for very similar reasons that it's hard to tell with Anthy; he's growing and changing as the show progresses. It's hard to tell if he's letting the real self out or if he actually thinks what he says.

For me, I see Ruka as being manipulative basically the entire time. I don't think we even get a real sense of who he is as a person.
To me, he's almost a carbon copy of Touga with shorter blue hair. But I wonder if he became that person because it was the only way he saw himself being able to 'save' Juri. Had we gotten more time with him, I wonder if he would have turned out to have a vastly different personality than what is shown.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

She's thinking of the future, not the past.  Her eyes are forward.  She hesitates for a moment on the threshold -- takes just a moment longer to get her suitcase together than necessary -- then strides across.  Then we have the whole credits, two straight minutes of staring at Anthy's back: she doesn't stop or look back once, as if the writers are making a point.  I'm sure that Anthy will at times struggle with sincerity versus manipulation for her whole life, but I don't think this is one of those times.  I think she is sincerely done with Akio and Ohtori Academy. 

Yes, I agree.  But in the spirit of total paranoia, you know :-)

If you want to up the paranoia, what if Anthy is indeed thinking about Utena and of the future...only so she can now screw over Utena of her own volition? Before she was mostly doing it to follow Akio's plan but now it is personal so that manipulating Utena will be so much more delightful.

so i'm in the middle of my re-watch and i keep coming back to this thread and wondering a lot about motives.

At the end of the 2nd Touga Fight when Utena is trying to win back Anthy... Anthy remembers back to a similar situation with Dios and then cries... the sword goes from Darth Vader red to plain and Utena wins.

Who is Anthy crying for? Why is she crying? Does she feel bad for Utena? Does she remember Dios? Is she further manipulating Utena?

I seriously think she is just relating to a moment in the past with Dios, but... maybe its a part of the plan. THIS THREAD MAKES ME QUESTION EVERYTHING

Last edited by KissFromARose (07-28-2015 12:54:56 PM)

No matter how many times i see it, or how much i know whats coming -- i always cryyyyyyyyyyy ~  God the last episode gets me so much. And yet no even more, i still have no idea whats going on. This watch through, as mentioned in a previous post, I constantly kept ulterior motives in mind; but no matter how I read it.... I need to dig into the suicide scene more


Sorry i'm rambling, i just finished and i feel like its time to pick up episode 1 again ;~;

Edit: i realized i never event said what i wanted. Basically, what the hell is going on in Anthy's head. I feel like we need an episode by episode guide of like... ANTHY MEANS IT THIS TIME... or.. NO ANTHY IS CRAZY BITCH. did she really manipulate utena using the suicide scene???

.... I just got the dvds w/ the booklets this weekend... im on a business trip... so i didnt take them with me to read. but im dying to see what htey hold inside!

Last edited by KissFromARose (08-02-2015 10:50:36 PM)

YamPuff wrote:

Yasha wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

The most unfathomable character for me is pretty much Touga.

I have studied this particular character for years, ask me anything

How does he like his coffee? D:<

Generally speaking, he likes his coffee to be a proper cappuccino. Like, proper, okay? But that's in the morning. In the evening, if he takes coffee at all (usually he'll be drinking cognac or calvados instead) It would be an americano-- the espresso diluted by water.

[lol I know all, ask me anything]

I tend to avoid getting in-depth with this topic, frankly because my view of Anthy is very sympathetic and I greatly dislike some of the much more cynically suspicious theories about how deep her and Akio's plan goes, such as suggesting the childhood meeting with Dios was itself a manipulation. To me, that scene is in some ways the most "real" moment in the show. It's the moment when the show lets us, for a brief moment, step out of the web of uncertainties that is the plot as we know it, pulls us out of all of that and says to us, "This is the reality. Regardless of what the characters know or believe, beyond all the ignorance and lies, this is the bedrock truth this entire story is built upon: the resolve and compassion of a young girl to end the suffering she sees in front of her. Now, go back to watching Utena grope blindly, misdirected at every turn, for this, the truth that she has forgotten."

And the fact is, neither Anthy nor Akio ever show any sign that they remember Utena's childhood meeting with Dios. Quite the opposite, actually. Anthy genuinely appears to have no clue about it at all. Even when Utena says, at the very height of the climax, "At last we meet", Anthy gives no sign that that means anything to her. It is not a reunion for her as it is for Utena. As for Akio, he demonstrates knowledge only of what is self-evident: that Utena is searching for a Prince, and that she has an "old ring" that she clings to. He certainly attempts to take credit for it, but Akio's word can never be trusted, especially as he seems to know no specific details about precisely when or how it occurred. He speaks of it only in the most general terms, and this is leaving aside the fact that even if he did know everything about it, that is not proof it was his own doing. It would merely make it easier for him to pretend it was.

However, the greatest proof of Anthy's innocence in this particular matter resides in what I actually came here to bring to this thread's attention: If you are searching for the moments where Anthy is at her "realest", the place to look, and look hard, is at her "bedtime" scenes with Utena after they move into Akio's tower. These scenes are unique in their intimacy and authenticity. Anthy's hair is down and her glasses are off - in front of Utena. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that these scenes are, in fact, the only times that is the case before the Balcony Jump and the final duel. We all know how important and consistent the symbolism of bound and unbound hair in Utena is, as well as the meaning of Anthy's glasses. It was the same during the Balcony Jump. In that moment, Anthy's true self was revealed. It is the same here. I can't address every moment from these scenes that is noteworthy, but there are two I wish to strongly point out.

First, it's at these times that Anthy begins, haltingly, to tell Utena something. To begin to tell her, only to trail away, again and again. In the most half-hearted and hopeless way, Anthy is trying to warn Utena. It would've been impossible for her to reveal everything on her own, but she wanted Utena to pull it out of her. She was giving Utena an opening. That Utena didn't notice or inquire about it, despite it happening repeatedly, despite all her self-righteous talk of "opening up to each other", "come talk to me if you have a problem", etc. is just another reminder that Utena's words and actions often do not mesh. Anthy however, was actually trying to do that, in the tiniest glimmer of, not "hope", but something like the beginnings of it.

Most importantly though, it's at these times that, one night, Anthy says to Utena, abruptly and in a chillingly sincere way, "...Who are you?" Utena's response, if any, is sadly unrecorded. This line is usually brushed off or simply forgotten about, but this is one of the most important lines in the show, a key piece of evidence regarding Anthy's knowledge of Utena. To me, this is the final proof that Anthy genuinely does not know Utena, does not understand Utena's motivations or from where they arise. This can only be true if you accept the "child scene" for what it is, what it is presented as being - the shade of Dios visits a young girl and shows her, as she desired, "something eternal", the eternal suffering of Anthy. Even if you want to argue that that Dios was Akio seducing a young Utena into his game - although I don't believe that either - I could never believe, from the evidence, that Anthy knew about it or had anything to do with it.

In summary,

1) The bedtime scenes with Anthy and Utena do not get the attention they deserve for being "authentic Anthy" moments, and
2) there is ample and solid evidence to conclude that Anthy neither remembers nor knows about Utena's childhood meeting with Dios.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-19-2015 06:33:13 PM)