It's seemed like revenge for as long as I've followed this story. 
The image I have of their 'origin story' was that Dios would come home and crash hard after saving the world for all eternity, and while he was defenseless Anthy would cast magic on him through sex and torture.

By the time we see Akio in SKU he's transformed into the same kind of monster he was a victim of, and Anthy would have it no other way than for him to remain trapped in the old cycle of abuse.  The roles are reversed by this point, and Anthy appears to be getting bored with it by the second time Touga duels.  There's still no greater flattery for her throughout the majority of the story than to have a man with such amazing potential locked in the depraved state of a sex addict obsessed with an incredibly silly ritualistic game only schoolchildren will go along with. 
Convincing the Chairman that he actually is the kind of monster he behaves like could be interpreted as the en result of a spell to transforms the angelic Dios into the devilish Akio.

Akio is under the impression that it's all about him, but (spoiler) on episode 39 it becomes clear who's sake the entire "duel game" was for.  The last time we see him, he's left with his draw dropped like he just found out that his last three paychecks had bounced.

Last edited by 76089172 (05-16-2010 01:01:11 PM)

I guess I don't really think of it as "abuse?" In the sense that that implies just one of them is a victim.

And as to when it started...

I assumed that it started immediately after Dios turned into Akio. He and Anthy joined groins consensually in an attempt to mask the pain that they were both suffering from, or to express the pain... Anthy's pain being self evident and Akio's being having fallen from grace. But, come to think of it, there's a problem with that.

It seemed like initially, Anthy and Dios were about the same age. But when we see Dios turning into Akio, he ages. Anthy in all her sword-filled misery does not. If that situation and the chronology of that event in the context of SKU's timeline is to be taken literally? My previous theory would mean that Akio was having sexual relations with a little girl. But I think I'd still stand by that, in the spirit of a Lolita/Humbert sort of twisted relationship; pseudo-consensual, miserable, codependent... All those goodies.

So, in retrospect, I think it was abuse after all (if taken literally), but still that it started the moment Akio came into existence.

Before that, I find myself believing that Anthy and Dios maintained a celibate relationship wherein Anthy was nonsexually (or subconsciously sexually, as children might be) jealous of how Dios was able to have the prince/princess relationship with every girl but her. And, additionally, that her whole "having him for herself" speech was just a front for saving him. I like my little Anthy on the martyrier side of things.

I've always been of the opinion that Dios and Anthy's first time together caused Dios' fall from grace. In my head, I'd always imagined it as non-consensual moment not long after the Million Swords of Hatred incident. One day, he just got pissed off at her and said something incredibly bitter and witty about how Anthy finally has him to herself, and flat-out raped her.

For me, the bigger question will always be, "When did it turn from rape/non-con to a "consent via indifference/surrender/resignation with a side of psychological warfare"?"

chrisb wrote:

I do know Anthy isn't all that innocent but it just felt that after a while she was just going along with it while Akio enjoyed it. Even after Anthy started to normalize seemed like Akio would just drag her back down.

Dallbun wrote:

(Actually, I do recall one scene where Anthy appears reluctant... Episode 25, is it? At that point, though, their underlying dynamic seems to be already starting to shift. Anyone else have comments on that scene?)

Good example of her normalizing but Akio bringing her down I believe.

That scene is definitely an outlier in that we see open resistance from Anthy, but it's very telling on their relationship's part that her resisting doesn't change the outcome. They HAVE to fuck, as far as Akio's concerned. They don't have a choice, because without that sexual relationship, he loses the only hold he has over her that's distinct to himself. It's not Dios that fucks her. It's him. Everything else that holds her to Akio is based on who he used to be.

To risk humanizing him with having such complex feelings at some point in his life ( ), sex might be the only thing that 'proves' on some level Anthy's allegiance to him. Using his past as Dios is flimsy at best, and he knows it, which is why he uses it sparingly, as a guilt trip, when Anthy becomes rebellious. Fucking her confirms that she wants him, and feels some connection (penis in vagina?) to him. Sex is a stronger hand for him to play than 'hay but I used to be the love of your life!', so the threat of losing that hand is enough to move him to violence, which we don't see from him in any other situation at all. It's up to us to decide whether this actually impacts the stability of his ego (does he feel like shit if he thinks Anthy doesn't want him?) or if it's purely a calculation (SHIT IF SHE FORGETS MY COCK SHE'LL RUN AWAY). I think it's a sliver of the first and a lot of the second. That sliver won't manifest, if it ever does, until after the series. And god knows how it does.

I can't see Anthy raping him, and I really can't see him going crazy and raping her...maybe, after she was stabbed, Dios wanted to save her where he didn't before because she was in physical (as physical as the swords of hatred are) danger now, so he offered her what he thought she'd wanted before.  Sort of a thank you for saving his life and also comfort from her pain.

I think that began his descent from Dios to Akio.

But what do I know?

Giovanna wrote:

I think the sex started before Akio was really...Akio

I know the movie and TV series are alternate continuities. All the same, Ikuhara said (on the DVD commentary?) that Movie!Akio is a less corrupt, earlier version of TV!Akio. Hence his remorse and suicide when he finds out that Anthy hasn't always been asleep while he date raped her. TV!Akio is a psychopath, which means he feels no remorse; however, we don't get a sense that he's raping Anthy in the same sense as in the film. Maybe in some broader psychological sense he is, by controlling her thoughts and feelings as much as he can. But we can't deny that Anthy is the one walking to their sleepovers, not the other way around (for the first arc).

I wonder when their relationship's character started to turn, and how. Did sex change things? Or is that a symptom of an underlying dynamic? The fairy tale implies that Dios, for whatever reasons, was sexually denied while a prince. Whether he was chaste by choice, or whether his damsels in distress were just using him, is up for interpretation. When Anthy seals him away from the world, she might feel it her duty to look after him, and he feels guilty for plunging her into eternal torment through his weakness, his inability to save the world. Why wouldn't they sleep together? Who else can they sleep with that would give them the kind of connection they want?

Last edited by minervana (05-21-2010 09:05:06 PM)

I think that Dios and Anthy's relationship was more like Miki and Kozue's. Dios has lots in common with Miki, like their idealism and that they never seemed to try and accept their sisters for who they really were and only kept searching for their ideal in other girls.
Similarly in Anthy and Kozue’s case – they wanted their brothers to see the real them and accept them even if they weren’t an ideal. Therefore, I think it was Anthy who started the whole thing, also sexually, but that’s because she loved him so much. Akio just tried to use it up against her later.
Also, in her relationship with Akio, I think this time it is Anthy who’s trying to ignore the truth about Akio (she still wants to believe that he’s just “a little” changed Dios – though I think, that deep down she is already disillusioned, she just keeps playing the game to soothe her pain).
So in short,
Dios and Anthy = Miki and Kozue
Akio and Anthy = Touga and Nanami


BTW, Hello to everyone!

I can speak for myself because I was in such a relationship for a very long time.
It’s like, you hate that person and at the same time, you can’t even imagine living without him/her. You feel like a victim in need of a rescue from a bad wolf and simultaneously you feel like total shit (sorry for the wording) who deserves everything bad happening to you. I think most of time I tried everything in my power to detach myself from people, situations, the whole world if possible; to stop thinking, just go with the flow without feeling anything.

And in my opinion, that’s how Anthy might have felt when being with Akio.

Although, I think I was quite abusive myself in a subtle, passive aggressive way, like in forgetting what I was told or playing a dumb when not wanting to do something and that must have infuriated my partner and was making him even more abusive – but it was my little, mostly unconscious revenge (yeah, it’s a vicious cycle).
I know that my passivity and negativity might have hurt many people who might have actually care, but even if I felt a little remorse, I still couldn’t believe that anything could be changed and even if it could, there wasn’t any assurance that it would be a change for the better. The world felt to me like exactly how it must have felt to Anthy – like a bunch of constantly stabbing swords. It’s hard to think and care about others when everything you feel is pain (though I admit that it might just be a person’s subjective view. If someone is oversensitive he tends to view the world as a threat).

That’s why even though I understand Anthy and relate to her completely, it’s not like I consider her a saint.



Sorry for the random blabbing.

i actually never thought about this until now. So now that i think about it i believe anthy 'did things' with akio because she felt that she owed it to him. It seems to me that before anthy met utena the only person who she assumed cared about her was akio. And that the only way to keep him[caring about her] would be to do everything he wanted and sadly sex is what he wanted and power of course. So in exchange for the feeling of 'being loved' anthy participated in akio's 'sleepovers' and became the rose bride. But after a while she realized that she didn't have to do those things for people to care about her because Utena never onced asked anthy for anything.

I've never really questioned so far when it began, but throughout the series I mostly took it as Anthy returning to him in lieu of having a proper Prince. Namely when she starts losing faith in Utena as the rift between them grows (and Utena starts becoming more feminine). It almost seems as if Anthy continues it out of routine since her eyes always seem to show that she's not exactly enjoying what happens, but continues to do it to keep Akio (and her memories of Dios) close. She seems to show some kind of control on the situation though, even if she does still submit to Akio's whim. I can't remember the exact quote or episode but I remember there being one point where I believe it's after the fact when she's leaving, Akio says something to the extent of "And yet you deny me..." almost wistfully. I kind of took that as a reference to the story they tell about the Witch, and how Anthy still denies Akio even with what they do to each other.

...as all the head (or "heart") she can reach out