This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top01-12-2016 09:37:47 AM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Representation in Utena

Hi you all! I'm an old member returning after many many years away poptartpoptart (epi_lepsia used to be my username)

Currently I'm enrolled in university graduating in Fine Arts and Sociology, and I'm doing a research about representation of multiple oppressed identities in media. Immediately Utena popped up in my mind (next to Welcome To Night Vale) as prime examples of how intersectionality looks like.

As many of you know, Anthy Akio (and Mamiya) are some of the most popular choices brown and black PoC have when cosplaying regardless of their ethnicity or race, and this popularity is in equal parts because said characters are complex but also represent other realities regarding sexuality and gender issues. This is something rarely seen in media, worldwide.

So, here I went to re-watch Utena and I found myself with a huge obstacle: (despite being an activist queer(3) person of color myself) I can't analyze correctly the treatment of race and ethnicity, because my point of view is western. I am not familiarized with japanese-indian relationships and the manifestations in the media, but something tells me they can't simply be analyzed mirroring our conceptions.

My question is, does anyone know about analysis from a non-western point of view about these matters?

Thanks a bunch.

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#2 | Back to Top01-13-2016 04:35:13 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Representation in Utena

WELCOME BACK SWEETIE emot-dance

Ahem. So I'm not Japanese, but this did come up a few times before when there were more Japanese fans poking around in the English speaking fandom. Generally the response was very confusing.

Basically, Japanese-Indian relations aren't really a thing at all, and they've had less exposure to that population than even to Europeans and Americans. I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to scour it myself, but I think somewhere in Saito's interviews she says she uses Indian characters because they're 'sexy', 'exotic', and create mystery. (Utena isn't the only place she does this with Indian characters.)

So really, there is no treatment of race of ethnicity in Utena because aside from flavor for the color palate, there seems to be no reason these characters are brown. They wear bindi and such, but you never see anything at all elsewhere to suggest their religion or ethnic background is important, and every portrayal of them, past or present, has them apart from that background. The whole third eye symbolism implying their greater knowledge of the world around them applies, of course. The third eye symbolism, Hindu or Buddhist or otherwise, would have made its way to Japan, and is probably an identifiable symbol to Japanese that would be a tip-off to this, perhaps more so than their coloring. I would go so far as to presume Japanese people pick up on this immediately in a way western audiences don't.

I suppose the question then is are they being racist for using this coloring and background to create interest and the appearance of the exotic, or is that comparatively forgivable given the depiction doesn't involve any overt stereotyping or implied disliking of the group.

As to the popularity of Anthy (haha not Akio) for cosplay, she does give brown/black PoCs blessedly something to cosplay that's a default match, that isn't a stereotype. There's a cynical, world-weary part of me that supposes this does boil down to 'hey I can actually look like that one!' much more than it does a deep feeling of connection to the character. There are certainly people who dive on the role because they're excited to have their sexuality potentially being represented, as well. Which population is greater I couldn't say. The cosplays of the movie versions tend to appear far more overtly chosen for matching the person's sexuality. You see a lot of cosplay of the movie characters kissing, embracing, and lezzing out. Sensibly enough--the show is less obvious about it, and leaves enough room to question whether that's even a thing. (It never has been for me, and actually wasn't typically with us old crow fans. I know series Utena/Anthy is essentially canon these days.)

Anyway! You can't analyze this from the Japanese perspective, no. But death of the author and all that! There's a significant western fandom that generally takes its own thing from Utena, and that population can be analyzed on its own terms!


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#3 | Back to Top01-14-2016 06:53:09 AM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 719

Re: Representation in Utena

Yeah, they're brief, but you will want to track down any time the creators address Anthy & Akio's foreignness in interviews. For example, in this interview, Saito repeats the common knowledge that her earlier book Magnolia Waltz was set in India and she was partially consciously making use of that drawing experience... but she also muses that her use of Indian characters may have been influenced by Lalah Sune from Mobile Suit Gundam. (She doesn't say that second part with great certainty.)


Besides, that, I don't know about anything that you can't turn up in a five-minute Google search. These ones seem to be the most directly relevent.

Embedded Racism: Japan's Visible Minorities and Racial Discrimination (specifically the seventh essay, From Foreign Fetishization to Fear in Japanese Media)
Perspectives on Race and Culture in Japanese Society: The Mass Media and Ethnicity
Race and Reflexivity: The Black Other in Contemporary Japanese Mass Culture


Good luck!

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#4 | Back to Top01-14-2016 11:59:17 AM

BunB
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 11-03-2015
Posts: 91

Re: Representation in Utena

Making Anthy & Akio "Indian" always seemed like a purely stylistic choice to me. Also (as an Indian myself) it always annoyed me how India was represented solely as that exotic country with spicy food and jungles with elephants roaming around. Like it was literally only used as a backdrop for the shitty comedic moments.


Must the sign of the negative proposition be constructed by means of the sign of the positive? Why should one not be able to express the negative proposition by means of a negative fact?

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#5 | Back to Top01-14-2016 06:35:31 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 719

Re: Representation in Utena

BunB wrote:

Making Anthy & Akio "Indian" always seemed like a purely stylistic choice to me. Also (as an Indian myself) it always annoyed me how India was represented solely as that exotic country with spicy food and jungles with elephants roaming around. Like it was literally only used as a backdrop for the shitty comedic moments.

Oh, absolutely. That episode is some grade-A orientalist (if that is precisely the right word to describe an East Asian depiction of India) bullshit. It completely waves aside the idea that India might have real geography, culture, or, you know, visible people.

Last edited by Dallbun (01-15-2016 03:27:56 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top01-15-2016 02:02:10 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Representation in Utena

Skuld from Oh My Goddess! often looks distinctly Indian and a long time ago Fujishima even made the following image:
http://www.geocities.ws/goddessofvenus513/skuld6.jpg
but there seems to be no special significance otherwise.

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#7 | Back to Top01-18-2016 07:55:52 AM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Representation in Utena

thank you soooo much for all these replies (and for the re-welcoming) etc-love etc-love its very helpful for my project.

I suppose the question then is are they being racist for using this coloring and background to create interest and the appearance of the exotic, or is that comparatively forgivable given the depiction doesn't involve any overt stereotyping or implied disliking of the group.

Making Anthy & Akio "Indian" always seemed like a purely stylistic choice to me. Also (as an Indian myself) it always annoyed me how India was represented solely as that exotic country with spicy food and jungles with elephants roaming around. Like it was literally only used as a backdrop for the shitty comedic moments.

I guess these two points are very important. The intention is not immediately the same as the impact the message (or lack of) can have on the public. It's not precisely a matter of judgement, but on how the public reacts to the same material in different decades and different cultures.

Is problematic the use of a minority for exoticism? Is it in Japan? Is it for people from India, or for people of India in Japan? How differently would it be for people from India in Japan or the States, or from the same collective but in the 90's or in the present? What impact does it have on different people in different times?

I'm also interested in the "white savior" trope in the show. Is it deconstructed, criticized or reproduced? Did Saito reproduced it, and Ikuhara attempted to deconstruct it? Did it work for the time, does it still work?

To me it's extremely important to note how, despite how problematic it could be, it's still a rare example of intersectionality. And the other way around; despite how  much of an intersectional rare example it is, how problematic it still can be (or can become with the passing of time).


All insights on the matter are very important to me. Speak your mind etc-love

Last edited by pesimistamente (01-18-2016 08:02:45 AM)

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#8 | Back to Top01-18-2016 08:01:39 AM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Representation in Utena

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#9 | Back to Top01-22-2016 09:40:38 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: Representation in Utena

Epi, I am so glad to see you again.  You know I always think of you when I see poptarts, right?

Just sayin', you left a big mark here on my heart. I hope life has been good to you. etc-love

As far as the topic goes,  I'm not entirely certain of this and I would have to find sources to back it up, but I'd always been told that in Japan, Indian guys are considered to be like... exotically hot. Saito uses them more than once in her works-- and from what I have read, always in a position of sexual power. My completely uneducated opinion is that she wanted something easily differentiated in a visual sense, and something with a reputation for being attractive that she could play on. I'm fairly sure the decision went no further than that-- after all, we are talking about someone who put Akio in plaid pants. emot-rofl

Addressing the representation issue... I guess I really should have seen those episodes as being set in India. I didn't; I basically accepted them as Unnamed Junglespace that didn't have any people in it. Now that I've heard it might be India, I empathize with BunB, but I did want to say that I myself, and probably some other people who've watched the show did not see it as anywhere in particular. Whether that's good or bad I don't know.

As for the white savior thing... mang. That's a total can of worms. Personally I've always felt that was there but offset by the fact that both Anthy and Akio can control reality itself within their realm. They are both shown to be very powerful, certainly more powerful than Utena. I'm not saying it's not there, though.


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#10 | Back to Top01-22-2016 09:21:42 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 719

Re: Representation in Utena

Yasha wrote:

Addressing the representation issue... I guess I really should have seen those episodes as being set in India. I didn't; I basically accepted them as Unnamed Junglespace that didn't have any people in it. Now that I've heard it might be India, I empathize with BunB, but I did want to say that I myself, and probably some other people who've watched the show did not see it as anywhere in particular. Whether that's good or bad I don't know.

UTP Script for Episode 8 wrote:

Nanami:  If we could just get the phantom spice once more,
Nanami:  I'm sure Utena-san and Anthy-san would be able to return to their old selves.
Nanami:  So, please, Onii-sama!
Touga:  Okay. You may not return until you once more have the phantom spice.
Nanami:  I understand. Thank you, Onii-sama.
Keiko:  She said it but, I wonder where is the phantom spice?
Yuuko:  Well, it came from India, didn't it?
Keiko&Aiko:  India?!
Nanami:  Wait for me, Onii-sama! I shall return!
Keiko&Aiko:  You mean we're supposed to go with her, too?

Sorry Yasha, it's textual. emot-frown

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#11 | Back to Top01-22-2016 09:26:27 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: Representation in Utena

Ha, I guess I'm just stupid then. I put it in cartoonland in my head and never really registered that I should be thinking of it as a real place. Which is something far less people will do, I'd imagine. That sucks, a lot.


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#12 | Back to Top02-05-2016 09:50:54 PM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Representation in Utena

Yasha wrote:

Epi, I am so glad to see you again.  You know I always think of you when I see poptarts, right?

Just sayin', you left a big mark here on my heart. I hope life has been good to you. etc-love

(It's been a rocky road but I'm on top of it emot-smile poptart I can no longer eat pop tarts because I've been diagnosed with celiac disease, but that's just as ironic as it gets I guess! I'm glad to read you all etc-love etc-love )

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#13 | Back to Top02-09-2016 08:50:32 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Representation in Utena

Yasha wrote:

As for the white savior thing... mang. That's a total can of worms. Personally I've always felt that was there but offset by the fact that both Anthy and Akio can control reality itself within their realm. They are both shown to be very powerful, certainly more powerful than Utena. I'm not saying it's not there, though.

But...Utena isn't white...is she?


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/absolethe/itrg_signature.jpg

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#14 | Back to Top02-11-2016 12:47:43 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Representation in Utena

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Yasha wrote:

As for the white savior thing... mang. That's a total can of worms. Personally I've always felt that was there but offset by the fact that both Anthy and Akio can control reality itself within their realm. They are both shown to be very powerful, certainly more powerful than Utena. I'm not saying it's not there, though.

But...Utena isn't white...is she?

When I think of the white savior trope, I think of it as being connected to colonial apologism, White Man's Burden-style.  But Japan didn't colonize India.  I don't know that Japan has postcolonial guilt to expunge the way white Westerners might.  The Ainu, maybe?  But Ainu on average have lighter skin than Yamato Japanese.  I don't know where to start deconstructing it.  Which is what Epimista was getting at in the OP: I certainly don't have the intimate cultural knowledge of Japan to know what's going on with race in Utena, but if there's a "white savior" thing happening, then it can't mean the same thing in Japan that it would in America or Europe.

Last edited by satyreyes (02-11-2016 12:51:57 AM)

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#15 | Back to Top06-07-2016 06:05:15 PM

BlueRoseTree
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 08-02-2009
Posts: 10

Re: Representation in Utena

satyreyes wrote:

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Yasha wrote:

As for the white savior thing... mang. That's a total can of worms. Personally I've always felt that was there but offset by the fact that both Anthy and Akio can control reality itself within their realm. They are both shown to be very powerful, certainly more powerful than Utena. I'm not saying it's not there, though.

But...Utena isn't white...is she?

When I think of the white savior trope, I think of it as being connected to colonial apologism, White Man's Burden-style.  But Japan didn't colonize India.  I don't know that Japan has postcolonial guilt to expunge the way white Westerners might.  The Ainu, maybe?  But Ainu on average have lighter skin than Yamato Japanese.  I don't know where to start deconstructing it.  Which is what Epimista was getting at in the OP: I certainly don't have the intimate cultural knowledge of Japan to know what's going on with race in Utena, but if there's a "white savior" thing happening, then it can't mean the same thing in Japan that it would in America or Europe.

The Japanese did have a go or two on colonizing/conquering other countries but not anywhere near India, however skin-color-wise they were once upon a time titled "the honorary white" as opposed to all those little yellow men from the rest of East Asia. But to my knowlegde as a Japanologist, no such thing as a "white/Japanese saviour" is culturally recognized, neither as a positive or negative trope.

Exotic mysteriousness aside (which perhaps might be likened to how Gypsies are viewed in the West?), I think there's a very different initial feeling about India in Japan vs. in the West. The common Indo-European roots of our cultures and those of the Indian Peninsula is still relatively fresh knowlegde and not widespread so Inda is seen as an exotic faraway thing that is completely foreign to us. The Japanese, however, have absorbed Buddhism at least 1500 years ago and though it was brought to Japan via China it is common knowdledge that it originated in India. So Indian culture might be viewed perhaps similarly as the Roman/Greek cultural heritage that is common to the Western nations.


go fave my Utena fanart at http://nitrofieja.deviantart.com/

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#16 | Back to Top06-07-2016 06:40:25 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Representation in Utena

There's an excellent essay by Joon Yang Kim, called Animated Interracial Romantic Fantasies: Japanese Male and Non-Japanese Female Characters that traces a tendency of heroic male stand-ins for True Japan-ness and the politics of, in particular Chinese and Korean women and French and Russian women. The Asuka/Rei/Shinji dynamic, or Minmei/Misa/Hikaru dynamic, which is both political, racial, and probably oedipal.

With some of the other works by BePapas members, I can't imagine this sort of thing wasn't at least vaguely in the cache of thoughts and tropes when they were putting Utena together.

Were Utena a boy, and were this not a BePapas production, she'd almost undoubtedly end up with the female version of Touga, not Anthy. Anthy would sacrifice herself, probably after boy-Utena had definitively chosen girl-tough anyway, and fade away.

Those mid-90s détournement anime (Eva, Utena, Eat-Man) were a big shift in these things, in that the foreign lover does end up becoming the more viable. Shinichiro Watanabe has talked, more than once, about feeling his generation and that era of anime being more open to multiculturalism where cross-culture romances and heroes were more viable, crediting an increase in globalization and, for him personally, a love of Ralph Bakshi (who turned a grieving mother into a butterfly in a scene very, very similar to the moth-Shiori stuff; just saying). Watanabe has suggested that the anime industry and fan-scene have taken a hard turn back to Japanese-for-Japanese of late.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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