This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top03-14-2007 09:47:13 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
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Re: We Hate SKU!

guardian_rose wrote:

I know the manga was made before the anime, so it wasn't like they knew to put all those things in there but...still!

First off, I just wanted to share with anyone who doesnt listen to commentary... (i usually dont, but i got curious emot-keke)
Ikuhara and Chiho Saito are on the commentary track in the last disc of the US dvd release. in it, they discuss the production of the entire series. you learn such great facts like: the series and manga were made at the same time and the final episode aired on christmas day in japan. (plus much more)

what makes this so relevent is that character development occured in meetings and were produced at the same time... personally i have never heard of such procedures in a production before emot-keke

oh... and just to stay on topic: I hate most of the first 13 episodes. #13 isnt so bad though. the fillers make me want to take a drill to my temple. especially if im tourturing myself with the english voices.

Yep, at the same time. emot-keke It's interesting how they came to so many differences.

The first arc isn't as interesting to me as the rest, either. D: To me they were just to get to know the cast and get me warmed up for the rest of the series. But oh, the second arc, and especially the last one. etc-love

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#27 | Back to Top03-15-2007 12:13:49 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: We Hate SKU!

Lady Nilamarthiel wrote:

Um... so it's a bad thing that I prefer the manga to the anime? emot-frown

I don't think so. I like what Brian said about the good points of both and I think he's right. They do different things well, really.

I prefer the anime because Juri's my favorite and I find her much more interesting in the anime; in the manga she strikes me as a pure foil to Utena. While she's still a foil character to an extent in the anime, she's interesting enough to be a good character on her own. I don't think that manga Juri is a layered enough as a character to be interesting without Utena's presence.


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#28 | Back to Top03-15-2007 01:45:31 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Well, there's nothing I especially hate about SKU except for the series' animation, so I'll go with things I dislike. Please keep in mind that I haven't read the manga in a long time, so I may be a bit off on some things.

- Movie Akio. Too much of a boyish fop when I expected scheming hotness. Not my thing.

- Manga Akio. No plaid pants plz. Just no. Fashion sense, dammit. Also, the doomy overlord impression I got is something I've seen a million times already.

- Both Movie and Manga Saionji. Please, oh please, don't just freak out for no reason. It's not good.

- Both Movie and Manga Touga. Nice guys are so boring. Movie Touga redeemed himself a little by being dead and well animated, but Manga Touga just never got better. I like my guys to be assholes; that explains why I don't have (or want) a boyfriend. No one's a big enough jerk to satisfy. emot-biggrin

- Shiori. Too many of these girls in my high school. I'm not a fan, and probably never will be, although I'm not what you could call a hater.

- Shiori's voice. I seriously think this is half the reason I dislike the character.

- Nanami never having a plot work out. Dammit! I wanted to see her win!

- Any time any character shows indecision for more than two seconds. AUGH MAKE A DECISION. I deal with indecisive people in real life, I don't need it in the show!

- Keiko's feeling that Touga is somehow above her/unreachable. AUGH GET OVER IT. He'll sleep with anything, already, just shove your hand down his pants and tell him you want him naked. I bet he'd go along with it. Also, he'd find it interesting enough to pay more attention to her. Problem solved.

- Any obliviousness except Utena. Come on, pay attention!

- Some of the voice acting seems overly dramatic in places... yeah, okay, I'm stretching, but I wanted to have something to say for this stuff. I find it depressingly geeky how much I love this series sometimes. emot-frown


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#29 | Back to Top03-15-2007 01:51:06 AM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
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Re: We Hate SKU!

I thought Shiori's voice was so cute and sweet that it was creepy in her vicious moments. Seemed fitting or her character. emot-keke

Yasha wrote:

- Keiko's feeling that Touga is somehow above her/unreachable. AUGH GET OVER IT. He'll sleep with anything, already, just shove your hand down his pants and tell him you want him naked. I bet he'd go along with it. Also, he'd find it interesting enough to pay more attention to her. Problem solved.

Oh, word. I don't see how any of these girls think they'll be "the one" Touga chooses, though. But he'll gladly sleep with them all. Keiko didn't need to go to the trouble of being one of Nanami's henchwoman. Although, I guess they were just desperate for a black rose duelist for Touga. emot-frown I thought Keiko was kind of the most random and boring. Don't know who else they could have picked, though.

I wanted to see Nanami win something, too. emot-keke Well, in the end, that is. She grew up so much from all her losses that it'd be nice to see her win something.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (03-15-2007 01:51:29 AM)

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#30 | Back to Top03-15-2007 03:55:57 AM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2507
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0512.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/moviedvd/Cap224.jpg
OH GOD MY FACE!??!?!

there are several others I can think of off the top of my head, but cannot find shots at the moment.

I hate the way its OBVIOUS they trace other action sequences (like Wakaba and Mikage's feet moving the same with Utena's and the like)

Why don't we have a silly Touga episode?

Why was Miki so useless in the movie?

Why did they ignore anatomy and proportion (even more so than anime does to begin with)?

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#31 | Back to Top03-15-2007 06:19:07 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Yasha wrote:

- Keiko's feeling that Touga is somehow above her/unreachable. AUGH GET OVER IT. He'll sleep with anything, already, just shove your hand down his pants and tell him you want him naked. I bet he'd go along with it. Also, he'd find it interesting enough to pay more attention to her. Problem solved.

The problem is if all his fangirls simultaneously decide to do this. emot-gonk Poor boy would get violated.

As for why there are no silly Touga episodes, the humor seems to be distributed on a scale of obliviousness.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#32 | Back to Top03-15-2007 06:21:40 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: We Hate SKU!

Oh, another thing I don't like: Touga. He's a sexy, scheming bastard. That's nice. But what's his reason for being one? His character could seriously use some development.

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#33 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:17:44 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: We Hate SKU!

Oh my, my thread is a sucess! emot-danceemot-danceemot-dance I wasn't sure anyone would post.


More things I dislike:
The second ending theme. Ew. I sat through it once and never again. Bad song, nothing special about what they're showing, nothing really symbolic about it (I think), just Anthy and Utena hugging their prince. emot-rolleyes

Maarika wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

*The insinuation that girls have to act/dress like boys to be special/nobleuy;ewq. It could just be me, but I got a "being like a boy = good, being like a girl = bad" vibe from the series, especially around the last bunch of episodes. You can wear a dress and still be all noble and strong dammit. emot-mad

Hehe, I got a whole different impression on that. emot-biggrin
SKU seems quite feministic to me. The crossdressing thing, for example, is full of irony. They take the concept, dress Utena like a boy and in the end throw it all away in the end to show that even that isn't right. The way Utena dresses is symbolic, I agree that people can be strong and noble even if they wear a dress, but when you make things more symbolic then Utena wouldn't have left the same impression on others if she had been wearing her regular school uniform (or even a dress). ;D

That is definitely another way of looking at it. Hmmm....SKU, go figure. emot-tongue

dollface wrote:

-Fillers. While yes, they're funny, I feel like no one takes Nanami's character seriously because of all her filler episodes. I love Nanami, and I thought she was very deep, but then all anyone could ever talk about was her egg, or the elephants, ect.
-At times, the animation is lacking. For the most part, I find it beautiful. But sometimes... this happened:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidvd/Screen112.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/unveiling/ … ap0196.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0430.jpg WTF??emot-gonkemot-gonkemot-gonkemot-gonk
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/revelation … ap0547.jpg

I agree 100% on both points. The actual character design is great, I adore the pulling sword scenes, etc. but the actual animation is often pretty poor.


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#34 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:30:40 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: We Hate SKU!

YamPuff wrote:

More things I dislike:
The second ending theme. Ew. I sat through it once and never again. Bad song, nothing special about what they're showing, nothing really symbolic about it (I think), just Anthy and Utena hugging their prince. emot-rolleyes

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-15-2007 07:31:06 AM)

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#35 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:35:34 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: We Hate SKU!

You should do that, Hina. I don't think very long analysis can be made of it, since there isn't too much material to work with so it's alright. emot-smile


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#36 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:57:17 AM

Epi_lepsia
Tragedian
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 1429
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Yasha wrote:

- Shiori's voice. I seriously think this is half the reason I dislike the character.

emot-gonk yes, she makes my ears bleed.

I also dislike the relation between character and his/her age. Is just... i mean, Kozue is NOT 13.

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#37 | Back to Top03-15-2007 10:00:15 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

More things I dislike:
The second ending theme. Ew. I sat through it once and never again. Bad song, nothing special about what they're showing, nothing really symbolic about it (I think), just Anthy and Utena hugging their prince. emot-rolleyes

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

I think there can be potentials in having a good analysis made. Maybe the first part just shows the clip, and then analyze the full lyrics. They don't call that theme song "Truth" for no reason. And, I felt that the ending scene ties back to the last two episodes of the series, too.

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#38 | Back to Top03-15-2007 10:56:53 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hiraku wrote:

And, I felt that the ending scene ties back to the last two episodes of the series, too.

I think that way, too. But I feel that the lyrics are mostly self-explanatory.

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#39 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:15:16 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

More things I dislike:
The second ending theme. Ew. I sat through it once and never again. Bad song, nothing special about what they're showing, nothing really symbolic about it (I think), just Anthy and Utena hugging their prince. emot-rolleyes

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

Eek! It is the first!

*shame*

Must proof read more. >.> I still hate it though...it was pretty self-explanatory, instead of mind-boggling cool.

Last edited by YamPuff (03-15-2007 11:17:04 AM)


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#40 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:16:22 AM

tohubohu
Precious One
From: Boston metro area
Registered: 11-02-2006
Posts: 289
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

While I agree that some of the Nanami episodes are ridiculous and overdone, I think that they just highlight how completely f*cked up Nanami actually is.  I mean, a scheming, horrible, viciously typical teenage bitch is one thing.  Someone who is all that and who also killed a kitten when she was a small child because attention from her big brother meant so much to her (and she apparently had no corrective forces in her life)?  Seriously, seriously f*cked up.  When did the manipulation by Touga really start?  Was he manipulating her even then?  Or was it a major family dysfunction?

Also, the egg episode?  One of the most brilliant pieces about uninformed and confused teenage girls experiencing menarche I've ever seen.

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#41 | Back to Top03-15-2007 12:53:43 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Epi_lepsia wrote:

Yasha wrote:

- Shiori's voice. I seriously think this is half the reason I dislike the character.

emot-gonk yes, she makes my ears bleed.

I also dislike the relation between character and his/her age. Is just... i mean, Kozue is NOT 13.

emot-frown Well, as a fan I always thought Shiori's voice was well done. But that could be my bias. Don't throw things at me, but I actually think the dub voice for Shiori was perfect. I mean, sure, they screwed up with Mitsuru, and DEFINATELY with Ruka, but I always thought her english voice was very...innocently cruel. I suppose.

And SERIOUSLY! about the age. Everytime I see Miki, I believe he's young. But Kozue? No way. None in hell. I also don't think Juri looks 16 at all. Nanami is not in the same grade as Miki, there's just no way! A lot of anime seems to either make young characters look too old [like Kozue] or too young [like Chibiusa from BSSM]. I mean, does no one notice that they're supposed to be almost the same age in the latter BSSM? WTF


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#42 | Back to Top03-15-2007 12:56:59 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: We Hate SKU!

Nanami didn't mean to kill the kitten. I find it sad that people think so badly of her because it. emot-frown

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/RzMule/Mmyes.jpg
Oh my God, what is wrong with his face in this picture?!

Yasha wrote:

- Manga Akio. No plaid pants plz. Just no. Fashion sense, dammit.

The first time I read the manga,  I held the picture of Akio wearing those pants up for my sister to see, and said, "Look! Now we can finally play chess on Akio's pants!" (They remind me of a chess board, ignoring the fact that I never play chess, and that once someone took my king with a pawn.)

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I thought Shiori's voice was so cute and sweet that it was creepy in her vicious moments. Seemed fitting or her character. emot-keke

I thought that she sounded cute, too. It's amazing how she can sound so fucking adorable even while she's saying something like, "What the hell are you doing?!" As far as bad voices go, we should just be very thankful that there wasn't anyone with a loud Osakan accent. emot-gonk (That's ruined entire animes for me.)


Though I'm not completely against the Nanami filler episodes, I would have liked to see a filler episode about someone other than her. Seeing more of the characters from the student council would have been nice, and goodness knows that I would love to see more from the lesser characters. (I never wrote a "Catbell" parody off of the Cowbell episode... Really.)

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#43 | Back to Top03-15-2007 01:21:23 PM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: We Hate SKU!

Razara wrote:

(I never wrote a "Catbell" parody off of the Cowbell episode... Really.)

Link please.

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#44 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:38:15 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Link please.

I never published it. I wrote it a while ago, when I wanted to take a break from writing serious stories to write something random for a change. It's more of a cross between the SKU filler episodes and animes that are cute for the sake of cute, which is why it's probably for the best that I never did.

Having Shiori chase that symbolic bird and play with yarn, (as a human,) was kind of fun, though.

Last edited by Razara (03-15-2007 07:48:30 PM)

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#45 | Back to Top03-15-2007 07:57:33 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Oh, another thing I don't like: Touga. He's a sexy, scheming bastard. That's nice. But what's his reason for being one? His character could seriously use some development.

It might be indicative of my own twisted standards of personal value and morality that my immediate response to this was '...you need a reason to be that way?' It just seems to me something that requires far less explanation than, say, Juri's malcontentedness. That said, there's plenty of suggestion of Touga's problems with intimacy in the series, and I suspect his superiority complex and the behaviors surrounding it factor in heavily there.

Hina the Prince wrote:

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

That's about to get capped. It's an easy one since it is, in fact, really short. emot-biggrin I actually kinda spoiled the series in a way watching it. I took it literally enough to assume the love interest Utena goes on and on about is going to be split between her and Anthy. At the time, I found it very suspicious that he looked so much like Anthy, but the idea that they were related got kinda shrugged off by me as incredibly unlikely given this was a shoujo anime and not Real Sex on HBO.

Heh. emot-rolleyes


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#46 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:44:48 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

I think the one thing that really hit me about that first ending song was the empty-eyed, shoulder-hugging Anthy. It almost precisely mirrors the scene with Anthy just on the edge of running Utena through with the sword.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#47 | Back to Top03-15-2007 09:50:09 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: We Hate SKU!

Touga's transparent hair. It just drives me nuts.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#48 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:38:23 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Oh, another thing I don't like: Touga. He's a sexy, scheming bastard. That's nice. But what's his reason for being one? His character could seriously use some development.

It's developed, but it's developed through other characters. I'm trying to work myself around to posting a thread, but I'm far too exhausted tonight. Maybe Sunday.


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#49 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:41:42 PM

SleepDebtFairy
Revolutionary
From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Touga's transparent hair. It just drives me nuts.

Oh, word. It seems like he was the only one who had transparent hair, too. emot-gonk

Oh, yeah. And I would have liked to have seen some filler episodes for other characters. But, I suppose they were going for a theme with Nanami.

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#50 | Back to Top03-15-2007 11:57:00 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
Website

Re: We Hate SKU!

Ivy-chan wrote:

Hina the Prince wrote:

Uh, isn't that the first ED? And it is symbolic. I've been thinking about writing a short analysis about it, but I doubt it'll be up to everyone's standards.

I think the one thing that really hit me about that first ending song was the empty-eyed, shoulder-hugging Anthy. It almost precisely mirrors the scene with Anthy just on the edge of running Utena through with the sword.

Anthy's hug scene was also aired at the time when Utena asks her to come to her if she ever needs anything.

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