This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top02-05-2016 09:28:08 PM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

We know it doesn't work. Tokiko knows it doesn't. We don't know why, just as Miki uses his stopwatch and we never know exactly why. Maybe this can work out together.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/albums/Series/Episodes/Student_Council_Arc/04/Series_ep04_025.jpg

We are presented with two geniuses in the show: Mikage and Miki. Both are related with the symbolism of time and illusion; both of them are unaware of the unreliability of their memories, while both of them being very fixed on said unreliable -if not deformed- memories.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_159.jpg http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/14/Series_ep14_049.jpg
Subtle

Miki is the very first character we see Mikage interacting with, in an almost void and gratuitous way. I realized long ago that the place where Mikage takes Miki is no other place than the same room where he saw Akio making out with Tokiko many years ago. This is a very important place for him. Mikage sits in the place were Akio is sitting, and the symbolism of the sodas its hilarious to analyze.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/14/Series_ep14_053.jpg?m=1380853282http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/14/Series_ep14_054.jpg?m=1380853282
Miki why are so so awkward open your damn sprite

I always thought this was simply a character introduction, but it doesn't really work for me anymore. Both are too similar to each other, and nearly don't interact at all, if not for this scene. They are both geniuses obsessed with time (which doesn't work), one of them is directly related to the very origins of the magic system in the story, just to be completely brushed away from any relevancy soon after. This story is told to us, the introduction and the closing, by Miki.

Miki might not know his own memories, but just like Mikage/Nemuro, he might have some very strong abilities regarding the abstract universe in which they are moving. If someone could figure out how to hack time like Nemuro did, that person would be Miki.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qvcz6s.png

So, we are assuming Miki forgets about Mikage just like everyone else did. Maybe he did. But what if, while it was still relevant, he was able to grasp some of this inconsistency in time?

Which brings me back to their date meeting point. Sure, meeting with a potential predator is awkward, but Miki is not new to this situation. But how has Miki reacted in the past to an adult acting too friendly with him? Oblivious, if not uncaring.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/15/Series_ep15_013.jpg?m=1380853311
if Miki had a butt, he would be touching it

So, what is there in meeting with Mikage that makes Miki so tense? Why is he the one that introduces us to Nemuro's story? Could it just be casualty, a taste for parallelisms, or maybe dots to connect?

And then I realized I had been checking the date meeting scene wrong: I was so focused on Mikage wanting to be Akio by sitting in his side, that I completely overlooked Miki's place. If we go on this parallelism, Mikage echoes Akio while Miki echoes Tokiko, the only character in the show that knows for sure that time doesn't work in Ohtori. But Mikage is not Akio, Mikage doesn't even realize he's living in broken time while Akio knew, and Tokiko, aware or unaware, wanted that. Yep, that would make a very awkward setting for a date. In any case, maybe that scene wasn't meant just to read Mikage's echo to Akio, but also Miki's.

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/22/Series_ep22_202.jpg?m=1380853779

Just remember: Miki is the first person we see infront of the Nemuro Memorial Hall, but also the last. The first time, Miki has sort of a reason to be there besides meting with Mikage (he told Utena he "wanted to check some info" or whatever nerd excuse), but the second time? He meets up with Utena again, but after she leaves, he stays there to reflect and stare into the ruins of an old, irrelevant building.

(It's like Miki is our storyteller of Nemuro's story thought the introduction and closing)

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/14/Series_ep14_059.jpg?m=1380853283

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_221.jpg?m=1380853998 http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Black_Rose_Saga/23/Series_ep23_223.jpg?m=1380853999

That's why I think Miki knows time doesn't work in Ohtori.

Last edited by pesimistamente (02-06-2016 07:36:44 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top02-05-2016 09:32:04 PM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

bonus, another super needless and gratuitous encounter starring Miki after another pink haired fallen "hero" had been forgotten and erased:

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Apocalypse_Arc/39/Series_ep39_276.jpg?m=1380853267

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#3 | Back to Top02-06-2016 12:29:24 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

You just brought Miki from last on my character list to totally wow wtf close to top.

Time for that rewatch, how aware is this kid. He's totally trying to figure it out. Great catch!!

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#4 | Back to Top02-06-2016 03:00:34 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

I love this essay, and I laughed.  etc-love  I agree; I've always thought Miki has noticed Ohtori's weirdness, at least subconsciously.  The stopwatch habit is the most obvious way it comes out, but I think you're absolutely right that staring at the ruins of Nemuro Memorial Hall is another.  I'm less sure whether Miki is unique in this way.  A lot of the characters have odd moments of sensitivity.  Saionji has his brilliant, truer-than-he-knows line in the first episode about the Sword of Dios having no power by itself, how it must be wielded by a great swordsman -- and about the castle being a trick of the light, which is literally the case.  Utena has her beautiful line during her last duel with Touga, asking him how many times they've fought there in the sky, a line I've always taken to mean that on some level she sees the connections between the duels and their actors.  Lines like these and Miki's are right on the edge of dramatic irony.  We know something the character doesn't, except that maybe they do.

There's also this:

pesimistamente wrote:

We are presented with two geniuses in the show: Mikage and Miki. Both are related with the symbolism of time and illusion; both of them are unaware of the unreliability of their memories, while both of them being very fixed on said unreliable -if not deformed- memories.

The parallels and contrasts drawn among characters in the Black Rose Saga are omnipresent and ingenious, but one theme that pervades the whole show is that almost everyone is very fixed on unreliable, if not deformed, memories.  How aware they are of their memories' deformity varies, but I don't think either Miki or Mikage is particularly smart about it.  Mikage sure looks surprised at the end of his duel. emot-wink  I agree with a lot of what you wrote about relationships among Miki, Mikage, and Tokiko, but as far as the allure of idealized memories, that's not a Miki/Mikage thing, that's a Revolutionary Girl Utena thing. emot-smile

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#5 | Back to Top02-06-2016 06:42:39 AM

Astrinde
Tenjou Tilter
From: New Orleans
Registered: 01-26-2016
Posts: 89
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Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Awesome essay, and great comments to follow it, too!  I have thought for a long time (time, hur) that Miki's watch-clicking was his way of trying to figure out how and why time at Ohtori doesn't pass properly.  And while I've never compared him to Tokiko, that analysis works very well; Tokiko even provides a clue about exactly what Miki's doing, when she picks up her own version of the stopwatch and asks, "I wonder whether it's possible for an hourglass to run slow?"

As for the rest, I didn't get a predatory vibe from Mikage's meeting with Miki - though just why is an essay unto itself - but I can definitely understand how the symbolism and especially the location would lend itself to that read!  And I giggled at open your damn sprite.

satyreyes wrote:

How aware they are of their memories' deformity varies, but I don't think either Miki or Mikage is particularly smart about it.  Mikage sure looks surprised at the end of his duel.

What I find cool about that surprise is that - in keeping with the entire backwards/flashback way that Mikage/Nemuro's story is presented - Mikage appears to understand, perhaps even accept, the outcome before his duel begins.  By the end of his elevator ride, he looks defeated, not at all like a defiant duellist ready to revolutionize the world.  And he spends the entire scene huddled on the floor, in a similar position to the outlines on the ground of the arena; perhaps we're not shown his fall at the end of the duel because, in a way, we've already seen it.

Last edited by Astrinde (02-06-2016 06:58:47 AM)

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#6 | Back to Top02-06-2016 08:51:53 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

pesimistamente wrote:

And then I realized I had been checking the date meeting scene wrong: I was so focused on Mikage wanting to be Akio by sitting in his side, that I completely overlooked Miki's place. If we go on this parallelism, Mikage echoes Akio while Miki echoes Tokiko, the only character in the show that knows for sure that time doesn't work in Ohtori. But Mikage is not Akio, Mikage doesn't even realize he's living in broken time while Akio knew, and Tokiko, aware or unaware, wanted that. Yep, that would make a very awkward setting for a date. In any case, maybe that scene wasn't meant just to read Mikage's echo to Akio, but also Miki's.

Astrinde wrote:

And while I've never compared him to Tokiko, that analysis works very well; Tokiko even provides a clue about exactly what Miki's doing, when she picks up her own version of the stopwatch and asks, "I wonder whether it's possible for an hourglass to run slow?"

emot-aaaI love this!

During my last rewatch I was wondering at Miki's appearance during the first and last scenes of the Black Rose arc; it seemed significant somehow. I love the idea of Miki being aware of time being funny in Ohtori Academy and using his stopwatch to track it...


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#7 | Back to Top02-07-2016 07:55:57 PM

Astrinde
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From: New Orleans
Registered: 01-26-2016
Posts: 89
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Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Returning to the original post, it's evident that Miki does mirror Tokiko, throughout the arc and especially in that 'meeting' scene.  But Miki also mirrors another character, and I realised that this, too, gives us more clues about time in Ohtori.

In the scene when Nemuro visits Mamiya alone, the two sit together in the greenhouse.  All around them bloom the pink and yellow roses of love and friendship, but what rests between them is the spectre of death: love subverted, a bouquet of a dozen black roses.  And while they talk about the project, Mamiya - who has argued against the notion of eternity all along - takes up a black rose, symbolically choosing mortality over eternity.

Mikage therefore tries to rewrite this choice, starting with Miki, who could probably win a real-Mamiya lookalike competition if the Academy ever hosted one--

https://candledance.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/mamiya_and_miki.png

--and as Miki speaks, Mikage smiles fondly to himself with downcast eyes.  It seems a bit creepy on first viewing, that Mikage should appear so engaged when interacting with a young student he barely knows.  But he looks like a person remembering something, and my guess is that it isn't really Miki he's hearing or seeing at all:

https://candledance.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/nemuro_and_mamiya.png
"I deeply respect you both, and I appreciate what you're doing."

https://candledance.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/mikage_and_miki.jpg
"I deeply appreciate your kind offer, but I'm afraid I'm unworthy of your seminar."

Mikage makes the same offer, of the project, of eternity - his open posture, the open can - and is refused (closed can), in the same polite but firm fashion.  And of course, he isn't surprised by Miki's answer.  He's heard it before.

The room already had deep significance for Nemuro, but with Mikage, it takes on new meaning as a fossilized greenhouse, where the roses are stained in glass and carved in stone.  It preserves not just the memory of Tokiko's "betrayal," but of Mamiya's friendship and ultimate doom.  The greenhouse also had glass walls, but held warmth, connection, and growing things; this room is essentially a rose mausoleum, and what divides Mikage and Miki here is no small vase but a tall column on which roses are etched, an actual physical barricade separating them.

It hints that this shadow of death has become an insurmountable barrier between Mikage and other people, and also that Mikage is repeating the past again and again - trying to connect with someone else in a "garden," for instance, and later, trying with every Black Rose Duellist to change something in the fates of Tokiko, Mamiya, Nemuro, or some combination of all of them.  And so, time is broken, the characters trapped, and the loop that began in Nemuro's time - or perhaps even earlier - ultimately won't end until Utena and Anthy play out the story one final time.

Last edited by Astrinde (02-08-2016 05:42:23 AM)

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#8 | Back to Top02-08-2016 10:44:29 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Astrinde wrote:

Mikage makes the same offer, of the project, of eternity - his open posture, the open can - and is refused (closed can), in the same polite but firm fashion.  And of course, he isn't surprised by Miki's answer.  He's heard it before.

emot-dance Mikki is such an overlooked character, I've never heard this point of view before and I just love it.
Thanks for sharing, seriously!


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#9 | Back to Top02-09-2016 09:41:04 AM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

This is a really great little post, I had never really thought about it much before, but Miki opening and closing the Black Rose Saga is very cool. Those scenes stuck out, but I never really knew why. Anyways, good job, loved reading this!

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#10 | Back to Top03-12-2016 05:05:58 AM

CarolineWellwater
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

(( Sort-of-thread-revival,

Hey all, blame the early-morning insomnia for this, but I was wondering.  How many other timepieces do we see or are used in Utena?  I know there is Miki's stopwatch, and there is the metronome in the music conservatory (which sort-of keeps time in relation to its musical application), and there is a day-night cycle, and there are a couple of mentions of "being late" or " didn't realize how late it was", and I think I remember seeing a calendar at one point... but... now that I think about it, I don't really recall any other instances of seeing clocks or watches or day-planners or anything like that.  Shoot, on a semi-meta-level, while there is a day-night cycle, the seasons never seems to change.  (As an aside, I think the weather only changes when it is required too as well.) It always seems like late-spring / early-summer.  As an aside, I know I overused the "and"... I'm just too stubborn to go back and adjust my listing to be more grammatically correct. 

Anyway, I figured that since the original post was about Miki having some instinctual-inkling that something was off, that this question should fit here.  And, as a tangent off of that, do you think any of the characters get a sense of deja vu... or... Groundhog's Day?  What I mean is, if something was in a true perpetual loop, everything would repeat over and over again.  Everything.  It's a loop.   It has no beginning and no end... almost like a mobius strip.  So... no one should be noticing that they're doing the same thing that they just did.  And, in fact, during each loop, each character would perform their set of actions exactly in the same manner that was done during the previous loop.

To me, I think time/events somehow runs in a spiral in Ohtori.  A very tight, spiral that has upwards of 15-years to accomplish.  During that spiral, a detail or two changes, that only a couple of people realize (mostly the pair who implement the almost infinitesimal adjustment)... but such a large percentage of it remains the same, that the rest of the cast is overall in an infinitely repeating purgatory of doing the same set of actions over and over again.  And I think that's shown by how none of the cast seems to be able to reliably remember past events, even when dealing with their own past.  There have been so many spirals that the past, as a whole, has fuzzed just enough to have the sensation of being a photo taken one or two clicks out-of-focus.  At least that's the impression that I was getting off of Miki using the stopwatch.  Some... subconscious awareness of his that a measured value is off, but he cannot quite get the action to repeat itself, or be certain if something is wrong, or if he's just remembering it wrong.  In fact, I wouldn't be suprized if he had used the line, "Man, something just seems funny about this.  Not sure what... but... something."  When I think about it, it's almost as if Miki knows something should be different in his measurements... but cannot place his finger on why his measurements should be different, or if they even are.  In some ways, I'm kinda suprized that Miki hasn't gone mental trying to figure out the time-paradox.  (Double-ly Oddly, a similar time-paradox issue is actually discussed in the VN Steins: Gate).

So... does that make any sense? ))

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#11 | Back to Top03-12-2016 11:11:48 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

CarolineWellwater wrote:

How many other timepieces do we see or are used in Utena?  I know there is Miki's stopwatch, and there is the metronome in the music conservatory (which sort-of keeps time in relation to its musical application), and there is a day-night cycle, and there are a couple of mentions of "being late" or " didn't realize how late it was", and I think I remember seeing a calendar at one point... but... now that I think about it, I don't really recall any other instances of seeing clocks or watches or day-planners or anything like that.

That's really interesting!  I don't think anyone wears a watch, even though it's the '90s and it was normal for people to wear watches.  There's definitely a shortage of timekeeping devices at Ohtori.

I'm not sure how I feel about the 15-year-plus spiral.  What you're suggesting was my instinct when I saw the show for the first time, but I've come to doubt it.  There's cyclicity, for sure; this ain't the first time Akio and Anthy have run a dueling game.  But I don't think the rest of the show's events are unchanging.  Anthy reacts to Utena as though getting to know her for the first time, for instance.  And you'd have to deal with minutiae like clothes and technology, which would have been different in the '70s or especially the '50s.  Ohtori Academy itself looks old, but it can't be that old; it's got Western architecture.  To me, what makes more sense is that the cycle lies deeper than the surface.  The location may change, the cast may change, maybe the Chick Speech is sometimes based on Paradise Lost instead of Demian, but the underlying mythos of the fallen prince and the Rose Bride is so powerful that it resonates across repetitions of the cycle, and some people can sense that sometimes.

I love Groundhog Day; it might be my favorite movie.  I also love Majora's Mask, and that one episode of Star Trek, and I love(/hate) Madoka, and I like Steins;Gate, and the horror anime [[REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]] is one of my favorites.  But I don't think SKU works quite the same way.

Last edited by satyreyes (03-12-2016 11:18:41 AM)

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#12 | Back to Top03-12-2016 03:16:12 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

satyreyes wrote:

I love Groundhog Day; it might be my favorite movie.  I also love Majora's Mask, and that one episode of Star Trek, and I love(/hate) Madoka, and I like Steins;Gate, and the horror anime [[REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]] is one of my favorites.  But I don't think SKU works quite the same way.

unrelated: Steins;Gate is crack for me. I'm 99% sure I know which anime you are talking about . . . is it [rhymes with Cool Jive]? that opening song...


But back to the topic. I'd really be curious for us to document those time pieces as you were saying Caroline. I do agree the seasons never seem to change -- (honestly I would have loved to see the changes in uniforms / things happening during the winter time though!)

Japanese seasons for school are a bit different than ours  (in the US) ... off hand, i didn't feel like googling it -- I'm pretty sure new school year starts ...next week actually, a month before Golden Week -- as Spring is starting... then school finishes  in the spring as well. Let me lay that out more bluntly

School Starts 3rd week of March(ish) with Spring. --> Golden Week time off is end of April beginning of May --> Summer, Fall, Winter --> [Graduation]

We are never really given a date? Except we *do* know Touga's birthday is June 4th. So, Summer time and he does have a birthday party during the show. [That poor kitten D:]

I don't remember off hand which star system Akio is looking at -- but that could also give some hints as to what the timing is as well... (Although, 1 was that even real and 2, did ikuhara give that much thought into which stars were in the sky when in relation to the show...)

When do we ever get to another season outside of Springy-summer? i'm curious now. What other pointers of time passing are there?

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#13 | Back to Top03-12-2016 03:59:51 PM

zeedikay
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
Registered: 02-22-2014
Posts: 172

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

KissFromARose wrote:

When do we ever get to another season outside of Springy-summer? i'm curious now. What other pointers of time passing are there?

I ended up checking out the script for episode 33 (The Prince Who Runs in the Night), and I found what probably is the only overt reference to a season in the show.

shadow:  The stars are really gorgeous tonight.
shadow:  If possible, we'd like all our listeners to take a look at the stars our their windows.
shadowThe beautiful Autumn constellations are twinkling.

So, we can safely assume that the Apocalypse Arc is sometime around Fall. Though there are possible guesses I could make on the exact date (my best bet is either September 22nd or 23rd, for Autumnal Equinox Day) but even though there is a festival going on, we don't get to know much about it other than it has lights and a ferris wheel.
http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Series/Episodes/Akio_Arc/33/Series_ep33_001.jpg?m=1380825107

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#14 | Back to Top03-12-2016 04:18:20 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

And the show ends, of course, near the end of a term.  The shadow play suggests, but doesn't come out and say, that it's near graduation, which would put in in March.  Akio says at that point that it "hasn't been that long" since Utena disappeared.  It's hard to know how long "not that long" is, especially to a person like Akio, but "between one and six months" seems like a reasonable window.  That's consistent with the autumn constellations zeedikay refers to; it seems like the Apocalypse Arc happens very fast, maybe over a period of just a week or so.  So can we say, with some confidence, that the show begins in April (the beginning of the school year), building towards the duel called revolution sometime in autumn?

KissFromARose wrote:

I'm 99% sure I know which anime you are talking about . . . is it [rhymes with Cool Jive]? that opening song...

No, sorry!  [It rhymes with Ben K. Bligh.]  I guess it just goes to show it's a popular trope!

Last edited by satyreyes (03-12-2016 04:22:40 PM)

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#15 | Back to Top03-13-2016 12:38:07 PM

pesimistamente
Anthy Assailer
From: Barcelona [former epi]
Registered: 01-12-2016
Posts: 70

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

CarolineWellwater wrote:

How many other timepieces do we see or are used in Utena?  I know there is Miki's stopwatch, and there is the metronome in the music conservatory (which sort-of keeps time in relation to its musical application), and there is a day-night cycle, and there are a couple of mentions of "being late" or " didn't realize how late it was", and I think I remember seeing a calendar at one point... but... now that I think about it, I don't really recall any other instances of seeing clocks or watches or day-planners or anything like that.

Tokiko's sand clock that doesn't seem to be working, and she wonders out loud why she can't keep a good track of time while preparing tea. That's the only other one that I seem to remember emot-confused

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#16 | Back to Top03-13-2016 12:48:30 PM

Astrinde
Tenjou Tilter
From: New Orleans
Registered: 01-26-2016
Posts: 89
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Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Not exactly a 'timepiece,' but I see the Arena bells as analogous to a bell tower ringing the time, such that they announce every time at once, aka eternity whenever they clamour simultaneously to begin a duel.

Last edited by Astrinde (03-13-2016 12:48:46 PM)

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#17 | Back to Top03-13-2016 08:16:59 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

KissFromARose wrote:

But back to the topic. I'd really be curious for us to document those time pieces as you were saying Caroline. I do agree the seasons never seem to change -- (honestly I would have loved to see the changes in uniforms / things happening during the winter time though!)

You're referring to koromo-gae, which occurs on June 1 and October 1.  Across the board, though, there are almost none of the classic anime indicators of time passing in a school setting. Ostensibly, episode 1 is the first day of school, but we only really know this based on Utena's conversation with the guidance counselor about her uniform. Even then, it could be a few days in and this is the first run-in. The only actual mention of the school calendar is someone mentioning that the schedule for finals had been posted, but Japanese schools have finals three times a year.

Also note that no one mentions summer vacation, which is six weeks long. As a matter of fact, we don't even acknowledge that weekends exist until we first learn that Anthy visits Akio on Saturday nights. We also hardly see the characters in street clothes, which would indicate being outside of school hours, and it would also tip us off about the season.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#18 | Back to Top03-16-2016 04:33:39 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

An old Demian post by Gio just reminded me of this thread and how much the movie, at least, seems to reiterate a timelessness in the sense of time/causality dysphoria. The flashback scenes to "time" prior to Anthy and Akio's game are a never-time of cellphones and witch burning peasants. Touga's ghost ages, or at least seems to have. And, MAKio isn't even necessary as a real person, or entity with agency, certainly in the "present," but really, even in the "past." The Demian of the majority of the novel doesn't have to have existed, either, if he ever did.

SKU is a moment, much more than a continuum, but even inasmuch as it's a continuum, it's a very limited and specifically truncated one, that's probably mirrored and bounded by what we see of the three past eras we get outside the main timespan: You Get to Burning Times! (cosmic blame, persecution of incestuous witches, humiliated Devil), Bad Teacher Time (the "past" of the second arc), and Childhood Ends (all our flashbacks to characters as young children, learning that the world can suck and we can be part of making it suck).

Things don't always line up, but more than that, they don't develop, either. "Detachment from the past is key to that period in a person's life," as Ikuhara says. The past, whether that big Anthy/Akio cosmic fairytale past or the more grounded and intimate Saio-as-a-kid past, aren't in a continuum with what we see in the series, probably because none of it, reasonably, could be as remembered. We know Miki's idea of his Childhood Ends is wrong. We can assume Anthy's version of YGTBT! is probably unreal, but unreal or not, they're clearly present and real as sort of era-ghosts. They're being relived, reiterated, and not just when we rewatch them. It's as if they haven't lived continual lives in which those eras were only part of a continuity, but that they're just an information packet or a status quo for each person to work from. In some series that might come off as weak writing or poor planning, but with SKU, I don't think it is at all. It seems very deliberate. Especially in the midst of a very elegiac era for anime, in general. We had a lot of anime, at the time, that was concerned heavily with stepping outside time, lost time, and the sort of personal arrested development that spirals out of haunting trauma.

If Miki knows, maybe it's because things like Step-Mom Anthy just don't otherwise line up.


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#19 | Back to Top03-16-2016 10:44:25 PM

OddGhost
New Student
From: New Jersey
Registered: 08-13-2015
Posts: 2

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

If Miki knows, maybe it's because things like Step-Mom Anthy just don't otherwise line up.

I had forgotten about that Step-Mom Anthy moment, it really made me confused for a long time if anything in the show was real haha

Personally I noticed that Miki and Juri seem to be in on the "Time is weird" idea, mostly I think back to the first time we meet Miki and he records the replies between members, However they both seem to be constantly hazy upon it. It almost felt like Miki placed a hard candy in his mouth, like how they ended up in this duel over Anthy in the first place, and really only turns it over and over again trying to figure out what kind of flavor it is but never outright divulging into it. I do remember reading a post, unknown where exactly, about how Miki might have OCD and use timing as a way to deal with it but that seems beside the point.

Miki as a narrator seems like a good theory! I enjoy that idea, since Miki himself wants very much for the whole story to be told, which brings me to asking: does Miki use narrating the Black Rose Saga as cracking to door to whats really going on in the duels/his past self?

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#20 | Back to Top03-18-2016 03:10:33 PM

malna
Caretaker
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 209

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Astrinde wrote:

while I've never compared him to Tokiko, that analysis works very well; Tokiko even provides a clue about exactly what Miki's doing, when she picks up her own version of the stopwatch and asks, "I wonder whether it's possible for an hourglass to run slow?"

I'd never catch that, that's amazing!

I think the story behind the ruins speaks to Miki since he himself is a genius, in many ways similar yet somehow antithetical to Mikage. The similarity of names is not without merit. What differs them seems to be Miki's humility and caution as opposed to Mikage's hubris and ruthless determination - and that is what causes Miki to turn down Mikage's offer at the beginning. But it didn't have to go down this way. Maybe on some level Miki senses that, and that's why he lingers by the ruins.
Because what really cements the connection between the two characters to me is the theme of genius that rings hollow. Miki's music is that of technical perfection but it's also lacking in terms of feeling and meaning. This was exactly the case with Mikage (perhaps that's why he smiles when talking to Miki, reminiscing his old self); he was practically a robot before Tokiko and Mamiya. Ironically, Miki was the one to actively seek that shining thing of his whereas it basically sneaked up on Mikage. Given how their stories unfolded, perhaps people with such incredible capabilities at their fingertips are better off without passion (I don't think Miki ever really acts on his true desires; he seeks but he never dares connect with them and that's why Kozue calls him coward).

Agh, how I love this show, it's insane.


a lot of hope in one man tent

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#21 | Back to Top03-19-2016 01:32:30 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

An old Demian post by Gio...

SKU is a moment, much more than a continuum...

...Especially in the midst of a very elegiac era for anime, in general. We had a lot of anime, at the time, that was concerned heavily with stepping outside time, lost time, and the sort of personal arrested development that spirals out of haunting trauma.

Holy god. I've wasted my life.


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#22 | Back to Top03-19-2016 01:36:20 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

Astrinde wrote:

Not exactly a 'timepiece,' but I see the Arena bells as analogous to a bell tower ringing the time, such that they announce every time at once, aka eternity whenever they clamour simultaneously to begin a duel.

I like that! I think of the bells as "the shot heard round the world". Moments that have ripple effects. Changing how we/the cast perceive the past and what will happen in the future.

(Which is why I love how as far as we see, the bells don't ring for the end of Revolution until Anthy steps out of Ohtori's gate.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (03-19-2016 01:36:59 AM)


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#23 | Back to Top03-19-2016 02:46:22 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: Time doesn't work in Ohtori, and Miki knows

rhyaniwyn wrote:

(Which is why I love how as far as we see, the bells don't ring for the end of Revolution until Anthy steps out of Ohtori's gate.)

This! the only "bells" we get are in the dueling song when utena starts kicking akio's ass right before well... you know.. school-chef

"BOON BOON KINKONKAN, BOON BOON KINKONKAN"

https://youtu.be/wK00HnkapOk?t=3m23s here for reference!! (if the link doesn't work cause im bad its at 3m and 23 sec at this video)

it gives me chills every time you hear them singing the bell tolling.

but i guess i've diverged a bit from the time topic . . .

((SO MANY EDITS I CANT TO THE LINK THINGS BECAUSE IM BAD.))

Last edited by KissFromARose (03-19-2016 02:48:00 AM)

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