I don't think he could get them to duel without the rose. Specifically, it's by scattering (to use the sub's term) the rose that Utena frees the black rose duellists, without exception. Although we only see Kanae get impaled with a rose, none of Mikage's victims are in a state to duel Utena at the moment they hit the bottom of his elevator. At that point he's stripped them down and made them vulnerable, but they haven't become his tools until (the missing scene where) they get their rose and signet ring.

Regardless of if you agree with that, however, it's certainly plausible that the roses have some sort of magical property; as it's Mamiya!Anthy who grows them.

YostinAust wrote:

I always thought the rose's symbolized a capacity for darkness and evil in their souls. There were only so many potential candidates for Nietz-I mean, Mikage's scheme. The whole sequence, plus the questionability of Mikage's, um, aliveness points to the metaphorical nature of his character. He is Schopenhauer, Wagner, Kierkegaard, and Nietzche all rolled into one bundle of nihilistic angst. His natural enemy is the faded remnants of the Old Order (here Anthy and Akio represent a sort of currupt Christianity). It is eventually revealed that his goals - Mamiya - are the same as those of his enemies.

I do not agree - nihilists like Nietzsche or Schopenhauer would never go in such pathetic "resentment factory" of Mikage. But yes, Mikage is kind of nihilist, but with very particular purpose ("revenge") which ties down him.

...more likely it means that black duellists are ordinary slaves...

YostinAust wrote:

Melegant wrote:

YostinAust wrote:

I always thought the rose's symbolized a capacity for darkness and evil in their souls. There were only so many potential candidates for Nietz-I mean, Mikage's scheme. The whole sequence, plus the questionability of Mikage's, um, aliveness points to the metaphorical nature of his character. He is Schopenhauer, Wagner, Kierkegaard, and Nietzche all rolled into one bundle of nihilistic angst. His natural enemy is the faded remnants of the Old Order (here Anthy and Akio represent a sort of currupt Christianity). It is eventually revealed that his goals - Mamiya - are the same as those of his enemies.

I do not agree - nihilists like Nietzsche or Schopenhauer would never go in such pathetic "resentment factory" of Mikage. But yes, Mikage is kind of nihilist, but with very particular purpose ("revenge") which ties down him.

Sorry; to clarify, I meant that Mikage himself was the nietzche figure, not the black rose duelists. They're more like the unpopular emo/goth kids in school who quote aforementioioned philosophies without fully understanding them. They are a bunch of wannabes who like to think of themselves as freethinkers, hence all the "I've seen the truth" bullshit the Black Rose duelists spew.

Yes, You are right; broken and distressful characters from the Black rose have similar with nihilist as much as dragonfly with dragon. But still, I do not count Mikage as the Nietzsche-an (and specially not as the most known Nietzsche's creation - Übermensch). He might be very clever and with psychological abilities, but has no unworldliness and has not enough intellectual capacity to become more than manipulatory shadow with unfilled dream.

YostinAust wrote:

Melegant wrote:

YostinAust wrote:

Sorry; to clarify, I meant that Mikage himself was the nietzche figure, not the black rose duelists. They're more like the unpopular emo/goth kids in school who quote aforementioioned philosophies without fully understanding them. They are a bunch of wannabes who like to think of themselves as freethinkers, hence all the "I've seen the truth" bullshit the Black Rose duelists spew.

Yes, You are right; broken and distressful characters from the Black rose have similar with nihilist as much as dragonfly with dragon. But still, I do not count Mikage as the Nietzsche-an (and specially not as the most known Nietzsche's creation - Übermensch). He might be very clever and with psychological abilities, but has no unworldliness and has not enough intellectual capacity to become more than manipulatory shadow with unfilled dream.

Yes, but then would Nietzche himself fit your description of what a Nietzchean person is like? He spent his time toying with provacative aphorisms, deriding his critics, and screaming about his angst. He also always harbored a strange love for his sister. So.. an obsessed romantic who may not even represent the ideas he is discussing? Sounds like Mikage.

Firstly) Nietzsche did not have to fulfill his philosophical ideal, he just created it in his thoughts.
Secondly) We have miscellaneous interpretations - in my opinion it is more probable he entered his insanity because he was disapointed by world.
Thirdly) Evidently we have dissimilar viewpoint on Friedrich Nietzsche and his philosophy. I do not want to be hard-hitting so I ask You if You want to continue with this discussion - which could become a philosophical "quarrel" (hyperbole).

I think the limit is more to do with the number of duelling swords available rather than the number of black roses -- it's more or less implied that only the "special" people have duelling swords of a calibre worthwhile in the duelling game, and those people are Utena and the Student Council. Wakaba temporarily falls into this category when she is close to Saionji, but it is then said Tatsuya's reason for wanting to duel isn't dark enough. I wonder if it was also that Wakaba herself wasn't "special" enough? On the most basic level, though, I see Mikage as wanting to use each of the swords of the seitokai and then...he ran out. This falls down a bit with Kanae, because Christ knows where her sword came from, but perhaps failure there is why he focused on the other swords?

Which makes me wonder, all of a sudden, why he didn't use Wakaba or someone to pull Utena's own sword and kill Anthy with it. Maybe that's kind of morbid of me. Maybe disabling the Engaged One before the duel by yanking a dirty great sword out of her chest isn't sportmanslike. It just struck me as a rather sensible idea all the same. If slightly insane.

sharnii wrote:

And let's all be glad that you weren't a duelist, Clarice. You might have actually got somewhere!

Nooooo, I'd still be in the rose garden. Possibly sleeping. Probably reading. Getting me to do ANYTHING is a task and a half in itself.