Could the way few English sources have addressed how Akio's mukoyōshi (婿養子/"adopted husband")status as one that put hims in a socially stigmatized position be part of what you want to explore?  If so, I (who am Asian) got a thread about this issue right here: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3338

There is also how westerner fans seem to think of abusive Saionji as being "unforgivable/criminal", while back in the 90's Ikuhara has stated that Saionji is supposed to be seen as simply the "traditional, post WWII Era Japanese male"  with Rated M for Maleness views.

Also, Japanese fans easily recognize the "prince delusion" of Ohtori as the delusion of real Japanese Society, since Japanese popular media label rich+handsome+elite young males "princes".  There is also a prevalent belief in Japan that "every girl is a princess", and that is considered a "positive message" to inspire girls to have something to aspire to (being sweet-mannered and pretty leading to being loved).  Basically, Asians see Ohtori as being the "mystical embodiment" of the warped values prevailing in the "Real World/Actual Society", while western fans mostly treat Ohtori as a cartoonish Disney-lite horror house with no connection to the real world.

Hope this helps!

Saionji is definitely received differently outside of Japan. I think several members of BePapas have discussed that.

Ikuhara has mentioned Western allusions or names tend to get more recognition from that audience, while the Eastern allusions are readier received by a Japanese audience (naturally). Someone (Newtype?) made a case for this being one of the unifying factors of mid-90s TV anime like Utena, Eva, Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop, etc.

I think there are definitely Western fans who can sympathize with Saionji, though. Idk how sympathetic he is to Asian fans.

Actually, I'm curious if there's any difference between which characters are more popular/unpopular in the Asian fandom, compared to the western fandom.

Hmm, that is rather different from the impression I got from that scene. Not just 'cause he seems pretty calm and cool in those scenes, but I'm used to female sexuality being tied to "surrendering" so if a guy can bring a woman pleasure, he's an alpha. Or something. I don't know if I can explain this very well. :/

It's also that, for the post-war generations, the "Children Who Don't Know War," Saio was what boys were raised to see as properly masculine, a real man, and isn't it sad that you can't be that anymore? Saio is, in essence, acting as a prince should, and the world's simply bypassed that.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

It's also that, for the post-war generations, the "Children Who Don't Know War," Saio was what boys were raised to see as properly masculine, a real man, and isn't it sad that you can't be that anymore? Saio is, in essence, acting as a prince should, and the world's simply bypassed that.

To be like exact-exact, Sai was a "cartoonish" representation of the "properly masculine/ take charge/ make woman submit" WWII ideal male.  The mid 90s was a time when such kind of men were going out of style fast, even in Japan, thus why chars like Saionji (and Ranma's Kuno) started popping up as comedic relief in popular media, including anime.

Edited to add:

It is interesting to note how Saionji, Touga, and Akio are all depicted as “pretenders” of three different kinds of archetypal Japanese male ideals, and are all shown incapable of being the “real deals” themselves.

Saionji: Aims to be the Macho Japanese Man.  While capable of domineering ways and violence, he is shown lacking the “courage” and “character” of the true Macho Man.  His showing of fear in Ep09 when the castle collapses (a fear that hinders his saving Anthy himself – Utena, shown to have no such fear, gets to open Anthy’s coffin and thus lay claim to true bravery), his “unbecoming” asking for help from Touga (after the humiliating stabbing accident) in Ep10, and his hiding in a girl’s room in Ep20 all disqualify him from being a true Macho Japanese Man.  In the end, he is shown to be just a mere boy with delusions of macho grandeur.

Touga: Aims to be the Gallant Playboy.  While capable of using sexual charms and manipulation, his is shown lacking the “mental strength” (see BR Arc room of emo), “guts” (see EP25’s hesitance to drive while underaged), AND “bottom-line male pride” (see Ep25+ bottoming for Akio) prerequisite to being a Playboy.  While his final duel with Utena shows him attempting to go back on the “right male track”, his losing the duel – and then doing nothing further to save Utena from Akio - again disqualifies him from the Gallant Playboy route.  In the end, he is shown to be more “Cunning Courtesan” than “Smart Playboy” – where “Courtesan” is seen by Asians as “powerful but ultimately whorish/sell-out”, unlike the “smart, manly, free, in-control” playboy.

Akio:  Plays at being the Prince to be looked up to by society, but is in fact just a “soft-legged crab/manwhore” to be looked down upon by that same society (see http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3357 for full details). The “prince- disqualifying” qualities of this character show up first in mere hints (his adopted-husband/ non-birth-heir status at Ohtori), then blatant facts (the “freakish/gross by Asian standards” nature of his sexing his sister), then eventually the self admission that he is not/no longer the Prince (EP 39: “Maybe if I tried to be a Prince like in the old days, no one would have had to suffer. <skip> “I've taken enough risks to buy the power to change the world (according to my selfish wishes).  That's how the world works.”)  In the end, Akio shown to be someone who is only out for Power, and not Strength/Nobility.   He is much like the corrupt politicians/big shots prevailing in the real world - the Devil/Morning Star who cunningly “cheats” vast sums of undeserved adoration/power from his world to fuel his impressive “might” (look how big the Projector is shown to be in his final scene), but his character/soul itself is unimpressive compared to his material might (look how small he is posed against his Projector).

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (02-08-2013 12:39:41 PM)

Lurv wrote:

Actually, I'm curious if there's any difference between which characters are more popular/unpopular in the Asian fandom, compared to the western fandom.

From what I can tell, Akio is markedly less popular with Japanese viewers than he is with English-speakers. I'm guessing J-fandom is more disgusted by him on the whole and is thus less likely to give him the Draco-in-leather-pants treatment, but since I have nowhere near enough Japanese comprehension to follow discussions or anything, I can't be sure.

I also get the impression that Eastern fans tend to view SKU in a more heteronormative light. I've actually read somewhere (I believe it was on okazu) that they don't even see the movie as truly lesbian, despite the naked makeout at the end; IIRC, they see Anthy as feeling "gratitude and deep admiration" for Utena, but not romantic love. Needless to say, that's not how most of us took the movie, myself included, and I'm pretty sure Be-PaPas (Ikuhara especially) did very much intend it to be romantic.

Come to think of it, "gratitude and deep admiration" is more-or-less how I'd sum up Utena's feelings for Touga in the movie, but I doubt the same Eastern fans who claim there's nothing romantic about Anthy/Utena would write that off in the same way. =/

I do have one interpretation of Dios that would work for both East and West, namely that he represents the ideal paternalistic society. The dominant narrative in all the industrial societies is that if you work for the system, the system will work for you. This is the idea behind the New Soviet Man, this is the idea behind The American Dream, and this is the idea behind the Japanese corporate system. And after the 90's, this system began to fade everywhere. The Soviet Union fell apart, Japan entered a Lost Decade, and the US industrial sector was gutted. It was a transition from a Hugo Gernsback view of the future, in which science and consensus and central government dominated, to a William Gibson style future, in which every man is out for himself, and hopefully, finally, to a Richard Stallman style future, in which people collaborate freely, but can more or less stand on their own two feet.

Last edited by zevrem (03-25-2013 02:01:37 PM)