Just to make this clear for everyone here, are you looking at it from a personal view, your countries view or the world view?

VerboseWordsmith wrote:

Juri (and possibly Nanami to some extent, but I haven't seen most of her episodes) sort of exists outside the binary, but it's in a very accepted way.

Ah, Nanami would be very interesting to look at, I think, because she exists outside the binary because it doesn't quite apply to her worldview. This is a bit off the cuff because I'm only working with the vaguest ideas of the principles you've mentioned, but Nanami doesn't strike me as accepting gender stereotypes in herself because she hasn't reached the developmental stage where they become important (this is her state at the beginning of the series, at least; by the end she has calmed considerably, even taking up the tea ceremony...which is interesting, actually, because from a Japanese cultural standpoint I'd assume it was an indication of her calm nature as the tea ceremony is protracted and requires concentration, grace and skill, but is there a link with womanhood and making tea and whatnot? I need to go look this up somewhere).

...but er, I wandered from the actual point. I'm assuming you're saying Nanami isn't conforming to the binary because she takes on her brother's role? I think that's because she sees herself and her brother as interchangeable. Which is how young children see themselves. Sure, there are minor anatomical differences, but before secondary sexual characterisitics appear children don't really bother much about gender unless they're told to. So, I think Nanami is just working outside of the gender roles because she simply doesn't see them. It's only as she notices her brother moving further and further away from her -- and gets a crash course from Akio in the disturbing reality of dodgy brother/sister relationships -- that she starts to cotton on. And in the end, what does Nanami do? Sheds her brother's skin and goes back to her school uniform. It's very different from when Utena does it, too; Utena dressing femininely is a sign of mental weakness; in Nanami in becomes emotional maturity. But I'm quite possibly bleating on about nothing. I'm going to go watch The Venture Bros.

Romanticide wrote:

I remember a exact moment in the series, The one is the first episode, when she is asked to become part of the basketball team, the guy who asks her doesn't seem very bothered she is a woman and more eager to have her in the team because with her the team has a bigger chance to win the next tournament, Utena refuses because she doesn't want to dress in the boys locker. I find it curious that one of the first people that reming Utena she is "a girl" is herself. Sometimes I get the impresion that Utena doesn't believe at the beginning that a prince has to be ultramasculine. Does this speaks of how people tend to be more genderblind when it suits their circumstances?

...damn, I'd forgotten that incident entirely. (I very rarely watch the first arc of the series, because I just don't tend to find it as interesting as that latter parts...which is a bit naughty of me, really.) Now I'm beginning to wonder what that means -- is it a sign of her emotional maturity, or immaturity? (This relates back to what I was saying about Nanami above.) I think it's immaturity, as Utena seems to accept her gender and operate outside of it in that she can behave like a boy, but still knows she is a girl. However, Touga beats that out of her by forcing her back into the "girl's" uniform (although as we all know, Utena's outfit isn't what all the boys are wearing anyway...which probably says something itself, something almost hermaphroditic in that she's wearing a "boys" uniform with a distinctly feminine slant). Utena then takes back her own uniform. Akio then talks her out of it (in more ways than one). So...yeah. Uh, I've completely lost my trail of thought, again. (You can tell I haven't done this sort of thing in ages.) I suppose what I wanted to say is that Utena's being genderblind at first because she thinks she understands the genders and feels any distinctions between them don't apply to her (because of her childish wish to utilise the "heroic" aspects of being abiy to save the damsel in distress). As we go through the series her own oncoming adolescence and the external factors of the student council, Akio and Anthy challenge those beliefs and she has to work through them to get to the last duel, where she rejects the dress Akio puts her in and takes out her own gender-neutral (if we assume that one is cancelling the other) and duels for Anthy's sake.

...is any of this making any sense? Or am I just talking out my ass again?

Giovanna wrote:

When you phrase it that way I can't help but wonder if Nanami is a commentary on the modern Japanese woman, and how their values in youth are very far from the traditional. Young women in Japan are getting more and more power, rejecting the traditions, which often placed them in submissive positions, and in doing so are also rejecting a lot of the merits those things had. There is something of value in tea ceremony because it does require skill and grace, but it's easier to reject it entirely as a submissive act. Nanami for most of the show sucks at concentrating, and isn't especially graceful, at least not in the traditional sense. But perhaps it's a sign of maturity for her in the end that she's taking on some of the older traditions, hopefully for what really was valuable in them, and not because she needs to settle down and be a good little woman now.

Ah, you see, that's what I want to look up, because my understanding of the ceremony is quite limited. I just can't recall if it's male/female dominated, or it's just for anyone who can do it. I seem to remember reading about it in my geisha books as one of their skills, but I'm sure some anime had a male practising it (...oh, yeah, it was Rurouni Kenshin, which is semi-historical...but then it was Aoshi doing it, and he was nuts ). But I really like your spin on it; it takes was I was bumbling through and gives it real clarity. I Nanami. I'm probably totally alone in that, but I really do. She just develops in such a fascinating way, and bugger it I want to write another essay about her development across the entire series using something like this gender idea as a basis. It would work so well with her.

Giovanna wrote:

There's enough to say on this subject that I couldn't possibly post it all in one post. I will note here for the record that I believe Saito (or Ikuhara, been a while) said flat out that Saionji represents the traditional Japanese male, and it would be hard to argue in the superficials that Akio, and to a slightly lesser extent, Touga, are meant to be anything less than the traditional alpha male; defined in a way that applies in by far the majority of cultures.

...dammit, now I find that really interesting too. In some ways you could almost say that Touga and Saionji are West versus East, because from my viewpoint Touga is quite westernised -- as is the entire school, I suppose -- but Saionji seems far more traditionalist. Which is interesting. But then Touga does occasionally slip on his heritage and duels with Saionji in the dojo. Hmm. I think I need to have a think about this. This whole thing is fascinating, and geez, you're right, Gio -- there's so much to say! You could write reams on just how this sort of thing applies to ONE character, let alone the entire cast....

Giovanna wrote:

YOU MAKE MY BRAIN LOVE YOUR BRAIN. Seriously, though, but I totally see what you're getting at -- and as I drove home this evening I kept thinking about this. I mean, the basic way I was looking at just Touga and Saionji seems to fit this better than I'd thought. In the end, it could be an analogy for the way Japan was forced out of its insular traditions and had to adapt to the Western world that was encroaching upon its own. Saionji's stubborn refusal to see the world except through the glass of the past could be a reflection of that, while Touga moves towards the future, appropriating anything that works for him as he sees fit...as well as eventually discarding it when it has outlived its usefulness.

Oh, I wish I didn't have to go to work, I want to think more about this.

According to your little essay, it was most likely cha-no-yuu and it can be done by both sexes... I really propose that the aim of gender maturity as veiwed by what happens to a number of characters that evolved in their gender-roles is really that of androgyny rather than either/or/nueter. A common blend, keeping in with a sort of yin-yang kind of aesetic.

Pardon me... my brain still hurts from a rather good debate essay on quantifiable reality, the uncertainy principle and determinism... part of which is quoted in my sig now.

Last edited by Anthiena (12-17-2007 05:18:29 PM)