I started crying halfway through the series (when Himari was walking up to Kan) half because it was sad, and half because I was going to miss the series so much!  It's been my obsession for the past 6 months and while it has a few pacing flaws, it's definitely become one of my all time favorites.  I had been so worried about a bad ending (especially for Kanba, who has been my unwavering favorite character since day one) but the ending was actually very hopeful, even though it was bittersweet. [Kanba and Himari got some of the most beautiful scenes in the episode, and so as a Kan/Himari shipper, I was satisfied. The family scenes were great too, it was touching to see how their little family shared that apple.  Masako's dream and Himari's note made me so so sad though. I wish in the end everyone could have stayed together, but I guess it had to be this way to get the impact of the sacrifices the brother made. Also in the end, it was nice to see Kanba proved Sanetoshi wrong - Sanetoshi said nothing would be left of Kanba in the world, not even a fleck of dust, but Himari woke up with a shard on her forehead. ] Overall I loved it.

Last edited by HonorableShadow (12-23-2011 08:26:15 AM)

Mmmm... this may be just me and my personal obsession with Faust, but the [ chat between Momoka and Sanetoshi are kind of like the conversation that was shared between God and Mephistopheles. Especially the part where Sanetoshi chose to stay behind, it's kind of like the "devil" choosing to remain in the abyss, while everyone else is moving on.]

I believe the series would have been infinitesimally better if Sanetoshi had taken a cue from Akio and slept with the entire cast.

Posting again because I've got a question.

Why the hell did they need the penguin drum in the first place now?
And why did the Princess of the Crystal want it now?

Since the pengdrum is that. GAH IM SO CONFUSED.

satyreyes wrote:

I didn't get it. 

what didn't you get? o:

Well I can't answer the rest of your questions, but I can answer a few of them.

How did [[Kanba sacrifice himself to save Himari?  Hadn't the series already specifically established that he doesn't have the power to do that? ]

That's not actually the case. [ Sanetoshi was the one who told him he doesn't have the power, and....well...Sanetoshi wanted to manipulate him into blowing up a subway. Momoka(or at least, Hat!Momoka) told him he could still save her and in the novel, told him "don't be misled." (This next part is mostly my own theory, so I'm not trying to claim it as fact.)  The problem was that he couldn't save her on his own, he only had half the power, because he gave Shouma half of his apple, which turned out to be the Penguindrum that could save Himari by exchanging her fate for someone else's. In this episode, Shouma ended up returning Kanba's half to him, so Kanba had a whole apple. In turn, Kanba gave the whole apple to Himari and so he was able to save her with his Penguindrum, the apple. He exchanges his fate for her's, and shattered like she would have in child broiler.]

Edit:

Why can't anyone [remember Kanba and Shouma?  In the new destiny, did they never exist?  But if that's true, why is Himari living in the Takakura house instead of the Child Broiler, and how did Ringo meet her?  Was the forgetfulness a byproduct of the destiny transfer?  But if that's true, why did everyone clearly remember Momoka earlier in the show]?

[Himari wasn't living with the Takakura's, even though it was their house. The parents in the picture were different, in fact, the dad looked a little bit like the Takakura uncle. But maybe not, it might have been her biological parents, or she may have been adopted? She wasn't in the child broiler because she was chosen, Kanba had given her a full apple. Himari met Ringo in the hospital, she mentions to her uncle on the phone that she had made friends with the girl she was taken to the hospital with.]

Last edited by HonorableShadow (12-23-2011 03:54:07 PM)

I edited my post up there to answer another of your questions, but you were too quick for me. XD I'm glad you thought it was helpful though!  I'm still  trying to piece everything together myself, it's giving me a headache.

How did a magic apple get in Kanba's box?

I think Kanba was just lucky. [ In the world, there are chosen and unchosen. We saw a lot of unchosen kids, but there are a lot of chosen people, and Kanba just so happened to be one of them. I'm not so sure the apple is literal, it's hard to tell with Ikuhara. XD But in any case, Kanba came from a family with a sister and brother who loved him, and the Natsume's were wealthy. Plus the Takakuras seemed to like him a lot too. So, I guess that's why he was considered a chosen one? Himari was abandoned and Shouma seemed neglected by his parents, or well, he doesn't have a good relationship with them. Alternatively, the "apple is a reward for those who have chosen love over everything" and Kanba chose to leave Masako and Mario to save them from Kiga, so maybe that was his reward at the time?]

Last edited by HonorableShadow (12-23-2011 04:00:09 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

Most of it? 

Why were they in the boxes?  Did that actually happen?  If so, when and why?  If not, how come a symbol from an event that never happened gets to be [the Penguindrum]?

I think that they were there, because they were also forgotten. Somehow those boxes are different from the Child Broiler. They're like Sanetoshi says in ep 22 or 23 the "box we live in" or something like that. I do think they're connected to the Child Broiler somehow - of course I have no evidence.
I do think that there could've been more hints to the penguin drum.

satyreyes wrote:

How did [Kanba sacrifice himself to save Himari?  Hadn't the series already specifically established that he doesn't have the power to do that?  How did Shouma sacrifice himself to save Ringo?  Didn't we hear that it's the one who casts the spell who suffers the consequences]?

since he had the penguindrum, he used that to save her. the penguindrum is - I think - the fruit of destiny. He got it inside that box right? It meant that he was chosen to live, but he gave the whole fruit to himari - which together with the Fate Transer of Ringo saved the girls.

satyreyes wrote:

Why are Himari and Mario [cured at the end]?  (Why didn't anyone have to [make a sacrifice to save Mario, and what did he have to do with anything]?)

I have no frickin' clue what Mario has to do with anything.  : l
A "reserve"? A reason to get that chick after Kanba - I don't know. But Himari and Mario are cured thanks to the fate transfer - but it doesn't make a lot of sense, because Himari got the fruit... so... ugh >_<

satyreyes wrote:

Why can't anyone [remember Kanba and Shouma?  In the new destiny, did they never exist?  But if that's true, why is Himari living in the Takakura house instead of the Child Broiler, and how did Ringo meet her?  Was the forgetfulness a byproduct of the destiny transfer?  But if that's true, why did everyone clearly remember Momoka earlier in the show]?

Perhaps Himari was fated to meet the takakura's or perhaps that is also thanks to the fate transfer. Ringo met her on the train - they both passed out and met in the hospital.
And Momoka was the one who did the transfer, but Kanba and Shouma didn't do this. It was Ringo who did. Perhaps she remembers everything, but decides not to tell.
Perhaps it's different, because Shouma and Kanba sacrificed themselves and died - unlike Yuri's father.

satyreyes wrote:

If Sanetoshi emblemized the curse on the families of the conspirators, [why is he still around now that the curse is lifted]?  And [what would have happened if Ringo hadn't come in with the spell on her lips -- what was Sanetoshi's plan]?

The curse was lifted? I thought it was still there. His curse and Momoka's spell kind of "crashed" into each other and I think one can't do without the other. At the end Momoka leaves with both hats - so Sanetoshi is still there too. I think they both exist due their own magic or something.
I'm not sure I understand the last sentence. Do you mean "what would happen if Momoka didn't interfere with the attack?" I think that the world would've been destroyed by Sanetoshi.

satyreyes wrote:

And most fundamentally, [so what]?  What is the [moral of the story]?  What does it mean that [two boys were willing to sacrifice themselves for two girls -- without the girls' consent, it should be noted, and in Himari's case actually against her will?  Alternatively, what does it mean that Himari and Ringo got to live, while Kanba and Shouma didn't]?  [The central problems of the story's plot were mostly resolved, but what about its thematic questions?: What does it mean to change fate?  Is it something that's possible?  Desirable?  How much should you sacrifice for family?  For friends?  Is there a difference between family and friends?  Do we inherit our parents' sins]?  I don't feel like any of these questions got wrapped up in a satisfying way.  To be fair, I felt the same way after watching the ending of Utena for the first time, and in Utena's case I've come to feel like the ending wrapped almost everything up with a flourish after all.  Maybe MPD will be the same.  But for now I don't get it. 

Hmm~ I think the story is about the relationship between parents and children. The effects of what adults do. And there's "the power of love" and what we do because of it. They all want to save each other, because no one is supposed to be there (except for Kanba) - like children born "on accident".
I also think of adoption with this anime.
Who decides which child gets to live in a home and which child is to be left behind. Especially children from 'third world' countries.

Fate is another important theme in MPD. Western people believe you can alter your own fate, but Asian people believe your fate is already been set. The whole anime is about children battling against their own fate, that has been decided by the adults Sanetoshi wants to destroy.

OMG SANETOSHI HAS A PETER PAN SYNDROME?!

:3 hopefully I was a bit helpful.

Boy1: The apple is also a reward for those who have chosen love over everything else!
Boy2: But everything's over when you're dead.

but Kanba didn't do anything and still found an apple in his box - I think it's what Paradox said. Rich vs poor, which is also tied to fate

Last edited by Notebook Darling (12-23-2011 04:22:21 PM)

Answers for questions and questions for answers...

satyreyes wrote:

What does it mean that [two boys were willing to sacrifice themselves for two girls -- without the girls' consent, it should be noted, and in Himari's case actually against her will?  Alternatively, what does it mean that Himari and Ringo got to live, while Kanba and Shouma didn't]

This was my biggest annoyance with the story. [Himari basically had no agency. We know that she didn't want her brothers to suffer for her sake, and those wishes were regularly dismissed. After Utena, I wouldn't have expected Ikuhara to create a 'damsel in distress' character, but that's what Himari was in the end, and while the series repeatedly shows that she didn't want to be saved, no one cared and the brothers' actions were portrayed positively in the end.

It was kind of interesting how Sanetoshi ended up being responsible for his own defeat. He sent Himari's scarves to Double-H, most likely in order to strengthen her attachment to the world and add to her torment so she would stay alive and Kanba would be more motivated to save her. But that's what led to Ringo getting their CD and learning the "fruit of fate" spell. Shades of Akio grooming Utena for the final duel?
]

satyreyes wrote:

Why were they in the boxes?  Did that actually happen?  If so, when and why?  If not, how come a symbol from an event that never happened gets to be [the Penguindrum]?

I think the boxes are metaphorical, like the Child Broiler. They represent being 'trapped inside one's self' with no connection to others. [I think Kanba got the apple because he was more self-motivated and had a stronger will to live than Shouma. Look at all the scenes where Kanba rises to meet some challenge and Shouma falters, like when he runs to the hospital with his dad to see Himari.]

[Another thing that really bugged me was the black rabbits - they were basically 'accessories' for Sanetoshi but served no other purpose. I expected more from them after they were built up to be part of the Takakuras' punishment during the Goddess myth scene - like maybe they would possess people and compel them to attack the characters or something. But they just followed Sanetoshi around spouting the same lines every time they appeared, and they were completely forgotten by the ending. What did they even symbolize except to create a parallel between Sanetoshi and Momoka, both split into two halves? And Momoka's other half, the hat that went to Mario, also had very little impact on the story.]

So many apple flavored tears.  I couldn't really process the ending the first time through; I've had to watch it three times just to form an opinion.

PROS: The scenes between Himari, Kanba, Shouma and Ringo all hit a perfect emotional pitch for me.  Kanba dissolving into the glass shards and the cut left on Himari's forehead...lovely.  Shouma sharing Ringo's punishment so she can survive the fate transfer...awesome.  (his "I love you" was just icing on the cake).  The waterworks came on full blast during the flashback scene where Kanba shares the Apple with Shouma; this is hands down my favorite scene in the whole anime, the VAs give it 110%, and it all culminates in the phrase used to transfer fate.  The reset button ending, while frustrating for erasing all that character development, makes sense given the way the plot was going, and I love the tie in between the kids from ep. 1 and Kanba and Shouma at the end.  Masako's ending was really sweet too The animation was lovely as well, especially the windblown canopy bed curtains and the backgrounds.


CONS:Sanetoshi, Sanetoshi, Sanetoshi.  He fell flat for me, and that's after really liking him as a villain up until a few episodes ago.  We never get enough backstory or motivation for him to be compelling as a character, he feels more like a concept.  That scene with Momoka leaving him on the tracks mirrors the scene in Utena when Anthy leaves Akio in the library, but with absolutely none of the impact; for all his Akio-esque posturing, the Doc was a dud for me.  Like Utena, it's very open ended, which isn't as issue on it's own, but I can't help feeling some of it is plot threads left hanging because they didn't have time to wrap them up in a satisfactory manner.  I also thought Tabuki and Yuri's appearance was kind of...unnecessary, since they just rehash what Tabuki said in the last episode, and Yuri is apparently no longer into yuri?

All told, it was a fabulous max series and it's been a blast seeing everyone's reactions and theories every week--hugs all around

I think what Momoka and Sanetoshi represented was the self-perpetuating power of love and malice, respectively.

[Everything that happens in the show is an aftereffect of their confrontation. Sanetoshi's terrorist attack led to Himari's punishment, which led Kanba into a downward moral spiral that started with him trying to steal Ringo's diary and ended with him killing dozens of police and plotting to blow up a train. The terrorist attack also motivated Tabuki and Yuri's depraved actions.

At the same time, Momoka's love for others had a more subtle but ultimately stronger ripple effect. Ringo befriended the Takakuras, Tabuki and Yuri realized the error of their ways, and Ringo ended up finding her own reasons to sacrifice for others.

In the end, it appears that Himari and Ringo will continue "paying forward" Momoka's good will, but no one remembers Sanetoshi's evil deeds anymore and he has lost his ability to affect the world of the living. As Momoka tells him, "no more trains will come for you." Momoka is capable of walking away from the tracks, but Sanetoshi will seemingly be stuck in place forever.

It's kind of disappointing how much of an Akio clone he turned out to be, though.
]

Can we has Mawaru Penguindrum forum or a new thread?  Spoiler tags are getting supah numerous.