hayama wrote:

OnlyInThisLight , I really enjoyed reading your intepretation of the first episode of Nanami's Apocalypse duel! Have you looked at the second episode at all yet? It's probably one of my favorites of the show. I'd really love to see what you have to say about the duel itself, as Nanami's motives for dueling Utena seem to go so far beyond what they appear to be on the surface.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.................I still have to finish up the second part of my analysis for the first episode.  I know exactly what I wanna say, it's just a matter of typing it up.


Give me about 2 more weeks to procrastinate, and then I'll see what I can do.


  And I have to resize screencaps for Romance of the Dancing Girls, which is a bitch.

Srsly, how on earth did Gio do all the episodes for the gallery without a pheonix down? HOW I SAY!

lol the way you threw Yasha in there it made it sound like she actually used Yasha XD

What properties does a Yasha have if you use it?

OnionPrince wrote:

RoseFire wrote:

What properties does a Yasha have if you use it?

Extra action every round, I think. Two extra actions if targetting Touga.

I was thinking something along those lines. Wasn't exactly sure how to phrase it.

YOU WIN!

I liked the idea of the arriving at the destination together.

Although, the problem I have with the Miki duel is that it can also be argued that Anthy was just rooting for Utena to destroy Miki and his naivete (Destroy is too strong a word, though). The Anthy I know is the Anthy who'd do whatever it takes to get what she needs to succeed. She has little or no problem of ruining Utena's pride at that time after the Touga duel, and she enjoys seeing Juri frustrated and angry by showing Juri the same orange rose that was offered by Shiori.

Akio said that Anthy's heart was moved by Utena since the first duel against Saionji. Something is already going on inside Anthy's head by then. Maybe it's not exactly friendship. But, I think at that point, her impression toward Utena is somewhat like a "Oh, she's an interesting character. I want to see what she can make of herself in the end." So, maybe it wasn't completely alien between the two. Anthy showed shocked expression when Utena runs toward Saionji with nothing more than a hilt for a sword, and she looked more engrossed into the duel during Saionji's rematch when Utena got kicked (Was that the time?) And when Utena guards her white rose from Saionji, it shows that Anthy is looking at none but Utena.

But, I don't think the whole deal with Saionji is the real ice-breaker yet. The real ice-breaker, in my opinion, is with the second Touga duel.

But, Anthy certainly wants to keep a distance from Utena, not wanting to expect too much out of Utena. All the way before Utena's second duel with Touga, I think Anthy is testing Utena's character. Utena's human after all, and humans are prone to err and failure. She can say to Utena the same thing she said to Saionji "Cheer up, Tenjo-kun." <- But, I think she's in a state of denial about Utena being just another duelist to her. She looks at Utena's hankerchief and remembers how Utena would drink tea and smile at her while Touga would walk off with random girls. I think she knew by then that Utena's not perfect, but at least she's the only one who wants to get to know her. I think that is when Anthy's feeling toward Utena changes from "what an interesting person" to "she's a friend", and she has confirmed that new feeling with her tears, which broke the spell on Touga's sword <-to me, that's where the real "ice-breaker" is.

Prince_of_Stars wrote:

Even as the two of them begin to open up to each other more, they are still not comfortable enough to be able to arrive to the same destination together.

Ohh, I like this. It's funny that they do always meet at the arena, rather than elsewhere. Except for the finale, where they meet on the stairs in front of the entrance instead. It's definitely a lack of comfort, but I also wonder if it's not a mutual agreement, unspoken, to keep this part of their lives separate from every other. Meeting at some other location in the school would make that location also linked to the duels, which Utena at least usually approaches with distaste. Kinda like how some people go to one bar when they're sad, and another when they're happy, to keep conflicting emotions apart.

This is also reminding me of Miki's line in the first episode of the Akio Arc, when they're discussing the gondola that Ends of the World has revealed. 'It's supposed to take us to a new level.' ...he's right and yet not, for the same reason the student council always is. It thinks is the main thrust of Ends of the World's work, when it's really just there as a means to create Utena as he needs her to be. Us to a new level? Nope, wrong us, bucko.

I'm thinking of near the end of the series, during those bedroom scenes, where Utena and Anthy fall onto their beds and talk about stuff... In almost all of those dialogues, Anthy is on the point of saying something, and then stops herself. She says something along the lines of "Actually, Utena-sama, I... Nothing. Never mind."

They've got to the point where they're comfortable sleeping on adjacent beds, and they are ALMOST comfortable enough to open up, but not quite.

In those scenes, it seems to me like Anthy is just an inch away from spilling all the beans.

dollface wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:

Reversi/Othello is an abstract strategy board game which involves play by two parties on an eight-by-eight square grid with pieces that have two distinct sides. Pieces typically appear coin-like, but with a light and a dark face, each side representing one player. The object of the game is to make your pieces constitute a majority of the pieces on the board at the end of the game, by turning over as many of your opponent's pieces as possible.

In 1970, the game was renamed as Othello in reference to Shakespeare's Othello, The Moor of Venice. Othello was described as two-faced, represented by the white and the black.

I'm not sure if it's important or not, but Othello was an archetype of jealous lover - even in psychology exists term Othello's syndrome.
Akio-Utena-Anthy (plus Dios?) are all jealous lovers, aren't they? I think they all just like Othello. And, at the end, Othello kills in fury his beloved one because of his mad jealousy. (Anthy stabbing Utena?)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I have been reading and enjoying, it's just that despite my enthusiam and how much I write, analysis and putting my thoughts together is difficult for me, and requires a good deal of time and a relaxed, engergized and focused mind on my part in order to contribute anything worthwhile.

But you make it look so easy!

I wish I could contribute more to the analysis threads, but most of the time I'm content to just read along and enjoy learning from the experts. In practice I've never analyzed fiction so deeply before unless it involved a term paper or something, but members of this forum have been doing so for years. That's impressive, and a bit overwhelming too!

dlaire wrote:

I'm not sure if it's important or not, but Othello was an archetype of jealous lover - even in psychology exists term Othello's syndrome.
Akio-Utena-Anthy (plus Dios?) are all jealous lovers, aren't they? I think they all just like Othello. And, at the end, Othello kills in fury his beloved one because of his mad jealousy. (Anthy stabbing Utena?)

Specifically, I'd be inclined to think of Akio as Iago and Utena and Anthy as Desdemona and Othello. There are a lot of similarities with SKU and Othello. But that's for another thread and another day.

It seems easily dismissed as laziness on the part of the artist-- not wanting to bother drawing the image of someone through a glass, but if that were the case, why would that shot have been chosen in the first place? So yes, I'm inclined to believe there's more to it than that.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

But if it was deliberate, it's interesting...  Ikuhara said (in one of his random straightforward moments) that when Akio is drinking that drink, it symbolizes him draining Utena's life force.

HOLY CHRIST
Ikuhara said something useful. I think my brain just blew up. Pity, I just did the floors.

It's definitely an awesome message to read into, and I wouldn't rule it out. I would point out though that it's not the first time Akio's drink has been suspiciously opaque. His drink in episode 30 is also so, even though it shouldn't be, if we assume it's brandy by how he's holding it. I guess it could be a red wine, but if it is, Akio needs a punch in the cock for palming it like that. They do the same thing to the same drink in actual series artwork of him also. I'm inclined to suspect it's laziness, or that really, that level of detail would be almost jarring in SKU's artstyle. They seem to be most comfortable letting liquids be opaque. Kinda like hair, a lot of the time.

I checked the screencaps I have of that sequence, rhy, and didn't actually see any shots where her ring hand is shown until she's tugging at the gate...am I missing something?

rhyaniwyn wrote:

But if it was deliberate, it's interesting...  Ikuhara said (in one of his random straightforward moments) that when Akio is drinking that drink, it symbolizes him draining Utena's life force.  By extension, you could view the the contents of the glass as Utena/her life force.  The fact that Dios is conspicuously missing can mean that Utena doesn't need him anymore.  In the same vein, it can also mean that Utena is NOT the Prince, doesn't need to be, and/or doesn't want to be at that moment.  Maybe all she wants to do is help Anthy. :-)  And/or that what Utena has become is something that overrides the Prince.

That's on the commentary, isn't it? I remember that. I always thought it was strange, because after he sucks them dry, Utena seems to have amazing inner strength in prying that door open. Also, Anthy finds the comfort in Utena's actions and words to wake up. Ikuhara, why do you have to make your symbolism so confusing?

Well, maybe it's laziness, but just the way the scene is formatted, I feel inclined to believe that it's not. I mean, why would they animate him even walking behind it if it was something they were too lazy to animate? I feel like Dios walking away would be just as effective without that drink in the foreground. I don't know, sometimes I feel like most of the symbolism I cook up is just me reading too far into things, and Ikuhara didn't intend for it to mean anything. But when I read through this thread, it's hard to believe that.

Anthiena wrote:

I'm not sure if someone has touched on this, but, Spira Mirabilis actually means something! It's called the Golden Spiral and it exists in many places:

http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT668/EMAT6 … story.html

Interesting enough, it is known in nature and scientists noted that even when it grows, it remains the same shape, as in a certain kind of mullosk. One scientist had this carved on his grave:

Jacob Bernoulli (1654-1705)  wrote:

"Eadem mutata resurgo" ("I shall arise the same, though changed.")

He was THAT fascinated by it's "mathmatical beauty". Now the title makes more sense...

I think I'm going to attempt an analysis of Miki's first duel. Goddess help me.


Dirge of an Imaginary Girl, Nocturne of the Real Girl

In the beginning of the game, we know little of Kozue. From a writer's perspective, this is just a good device; the manga wasn't finished, the introduction of Kozue in the first two episodes would be too much. We get introduced to her in almost a blink of an eye-she and Touga are doing something at least involving some pretty heavy making out; this is all we see of Kozue in current time during the Sekotai Arc; the rest is from Miki's memories, where she is an unsure, shy kind of girl.

This is certainly not the Kozue we know in Ohtori; it was in a sense, never Kozue at all. Miki, however, has convinced himself of this fact. Whether it is just something that Ohtori does to people or not, is highly effing debatable indeed. In a sense, it is because Miki is a Romantic.

Miki being a Romantic makes his character begin to make sense at this point. He idealizes things, but it is based in a sort of false sense of logic. (Miki is rather young in the show, remember-he's still a preteen, not a full-fledged teen like say Juri, Saionji and Touga) He dwells on the memory of a memory and that is indeed something he shares with Utena, but what he does with that obsession is unhealthy indeed.

When Miki begins to hang out with Anthy and hears her piano playing, it is for him, like bringing the Kozue of memory back from the dead-and I do mean that phrase. Miki mourns his sister, or at least the memory of her and ignores the living version in front of her. To him, Kozue would have been better off dying, though not in the literal sense I am giving here. He finds a proxy and here is where everyone knows pretty much what they are seeing: Miki is enamored and crushing over Anthy, but it isn't really Anthy that he wants.

So why doesn't Miki himself not see this?

For one, his age. Precocious intelligence is a very heavy burden to bear and really, he's a bit too young to recognize transference. He leaves his anger and his guilt aimed at Kozue. Intellectually, he knows sickness can't be prevented, but he blames himself and is angry at himself... but as they grew older and Kozue detached herself, he began to grow angry at her. How dare she. How dare she have a life separate from him. How dare she be what he was afraid of back then. How dare she be different.

...and in a sense, he starts to get angry at Utena. When he finds that something so precious to him can be taken at a whim from his substitute for Kozue, he wants, illogically, to prevent history from repeating itself. So he challenges Utena. To him now, Utena is also a stand-in for the negative feelings for himself. He isn't only fighting for a memory/substitute of Kozue, he is fighting himself.

All these things are at the back of his head as he fights and he fights very well. He wants to fight for his doll/substitute, and Anthy, being the jaded being she is, recognizes this. She may even find it in her to be amused at his innocence and mis-aimed crush. So she does the only thing she can without being called out on it: Cheering for Utena.

So why this simple guesture? Miki is placing his romantic hopes of perhaps... one-upping his sister. To recatch her attention... so Anthy kills all his misaimed like and cheers for Utena; for him perhaps, it is like cheering for all his flaws, all his guilt, all of the baggage he heaps upon himself... and it breaks his resolve. Anthy doesn't want him. She exerts her will on Utena's behalf and in his shock, he stumbles... and he loses.