rhyaniwyn wrote:

- I like Romanticide's take; that part of Anthy's problem is the possibility of being rendered obsolete as a goddess due to the rise of Paternalistic culture.  Sabotaging Dios would be revenge for this.  It also offers the hope for an escape of the role of slave/wife to the now-asendent male god.  This would be an alternate explanation for her role as the Prince's sacrifice--not that it was a side effect of something she chose, but rather something that was forced on her.

Thank you Im glad the indoeropean mith class served for something.

Oh and I found out another thing. In some cultures a rite off passage consisted in being buried or stay in a closed place, it was meant to die to be reborn. What if Anthy hid Dios so he could rest and renew himself? And since humanity stabed with their hate Dios died, or turned into something different? (Akio)
Also in some legends similars a monster ate men and the people got mad and killed the monster only to discover the men eaten weren't suppose to be taken outside the monster yet because inside they were iniciated.

mmm... I need to take my Mircea copy to take some quotes...

brian wrote:

Raven Nightshade wrote:

So when Anthy wasn't a goddess anymore, Dios wasn't a prince anymore, thus their "fallen" state.  They lost everything, which could be representative of the log cabin/shack/barn that they're hiding in during the flashback.

That cabin puzzles me and that explanation makes sense. Or could it be that they have given everything they could and are now living in poverty? (That might explain Akio's addiction to luxury and unwillingness to risk losing it.) Or that the unglamorous reality of being a travelling Prince includes bedbugs and splinters and barns? Or Anthy dragged them there trying to hide him from pursuing mankind?

It is interesting to picture Anthy as having to live buried alive for a while before she could re-emerge as a new being.

I have read claims that in Ancient Japan women had more status than they did later. An early Chinese epithet for Japan was Queen Country.

Yeah, their most revered deity was Amaterasu, who is a woman. In fact, a LOT of African societies were originally maternalistic, as far as I can remember. And, Africa is believed to be the origin of human civilization.
So, somewhere along the line, we have a mysterious gap where paternal society just suddenly takes over? This has always been a mystery to me...

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Is it a cabin, or a barn?  There's hay, right?  So I'd say barn.

It's a log cabin with hay in it, but there's a chimney, so it really ends up looking more like a house in the wildness from the outside. On the inside we see the pitchfork and hay and boxes strewn about though. It looks much more inviting from the outside, but...perhaps that's in an of itself something to read into? That it looks like a house, inviting, from outside but inside it's just a barn; minimal living facilities. Just like on the outside the prince is all nice and shiny but inside there's nothing there of his own, he simply exists because he must be there to serve others.

As for jumping the Biblical references, I wouldn't hesitate to do so. I can't account for the amount of Japanese lore in the series, but there's quite an excess of Western influence in SKU, right down to the art references. And the series rubs Judeo-Christian mythology right in our face as it is with the whole Lucifer thing.

Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that "people" "often" liken Anthy to the Demiurge, but I felt Akio fit that position much better.

Thanks, Gio, I'm going to mull over that some.

It occurred to me that Anthy's "rescuing" of Dios is an allegory for the Christian myth of Original Sin, where Eve damned herself and Adam by eating the forbidden fruit. This resulted in their both "falling from grace", which is represented in SKU by the end of the idyllic world of princes and princesses; and also condemned the human race to worldly suffering, ESPECIALLY WOMEN. Yes, the bible is very misogynistic. Anthy's eternal torment represents the condemnation of all women for committing Original Sin. Ohtori represents patriarchal religion, which I guess would make Akio the pope , so Anthy must be liberated from Ohtori to end the suffering. Does this make any sense ?

purplepolecat wrote:

It occurred to me that Anthy's "rescuing" of Dios is an allegory for the Christian myth of Original Sin, where Eve damned herself and Adam by eating the forbidden fruit. This resulted in their both "falling from grace", which is represented in SKU by the end of the idyllic world of princes and princesses; and also condemned the human race to worldly suffering, ESPECIALLY WOMEN. Yes, the bible is very misogynistic. Anthy's eternal torment represents the condemnation of all women for committing Original Sin. Ohtori represents patriarchal religion, which I guess would make Akio the pope , so Anthy must be liberated from Ohtori to end the suffering. Does this make any sense ?

Along with the other strong references to Christian mythology, I'd say we'd be remiss to ignore it. I've seen it referenced in stories-- I wish someone would write an essay about how closely the series can parallel Christian myth.

...Anthy never bleeds, does she? Which only adds to her Kumari qualities, as well as Utena (assuming engaged = married) dies/disappears after what we can assume is a short while.


On a note to Utena-Buddhism, I don't think it counts since people's desires cause them pain in real life, not just in Utena. I don't think Utena could be a bodhisattva seeing as she even admitted she didn't really pay attention to Anthy and was just concerned with her own possible princeliness.


...And not as related, here's a fun Akio/Kiss Me, Son of God AMV I found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seHdxG_e-5Y

Lightice wrote:

Actually, the one Christian figure Anthy resembles more than anyone else is...Christ, himself. Think about it: she sacrifices herself and as result gets to bear all the burdens of the world. Except that in her case, this causes way more harm than good and in the end, the lesson is that the world musn't lay everything on one scapegoat. Ofcourse Dios could be seen this way, as well...

And so could Utena herself, though that goes almost without saying. I'm just not up on my christian myth enough to pull the pieces together, although Akio tempting Utena has always reeked of a more realistic version of the devil tempting Christ.

Oh, and rhyaniwyn? You're fucking awesome. Seriously.

Once I finish The Hero with a Thousand Faces I'll have to post some parallels.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

-
Some statements imply that Anthy stuck around for a while after the duel.  What was she doing during that time and why didn't she leave immediately?  Possibly she was helping the other duellists.

It has occured to me before that maybe she was sticking around to help the others or see how they are doing. There may be a hint of that in the original manga.

Re-edit: In the original manga the turning point comes when Anthy announces she does not need a Prince any more. Utena thanks her for "waking up" and then transforms into, well I am not exactly sure what, it's almost more startling than turning into a car. But, spite of what Anthy just said, she announces she will save her anyway and destroy Akio. She will forsake her love for the sake of friendship and idealism. In one sense Utena is like a guardian angel sent to earth on a mission, but getting distracted by the World. It seems to imply that Anthy is the person with a great gift to give to the world and Utena was her guardian. It is after all the corolla and not the calyx that gets most of the glory.

It may not always be enough for people to realize that they must save themselves; malignant influences must be removed, at least temporarily, perhaps like putting netting over a young plant so it won't scorch in the sun. The paradox is that when Anthy chooses to live her own life with her own strength then help appears from unexpected places. That is an extremely common motif from many fairy tales.

It may be like a medieval romance. Anthy learns to live independently without waiting for an outside rescuer. But that does not leave Utena off the hook. She pledged herself to her Lady and to her quest and must keep her pledge. Her challenges become increasingly complex, starting with physical courage and culminating in humility and self-abnegation, perhaps in a sense the archetypical feminine principle, but a path she has chosen for herself, as a way to be true to herself. In episode 38 she turns her back to Touga and Saionji and strides off into the sunset. The view lingers on her very graceful feminine walk but we can also see she is dressed in boy's clothes. She is a paradox of girlishness and bold warrior. Perhaps it is her gender that makes her into an exceptional Prince.

Another Celtic/Medieval story is of the knight who has been forced by his sense of honor to pledge himself to marry a repulsive hag. After he passes one test of nobility she reveals herself to be a beautiful woman under a curse. She can be beautiful by day or by night but not both. Which will he choose? When he chooses to let her decide, the curse breaks totally.

In the series Akio is alive and kicking and dreaming up new plots to start the game again. The other characters are starting to heal and grow and so Anthy removes herself as her most effective way to protect them from Akio. In one sense the series is deeply unsatisfying compared to the other three version in that Akio is left alive and that raises awkward questions. In another way it makes sense because The World is always there and there is no final total victory.

Last edited by brian (04-07-2007 01:48:52 PM)

brian: Seemed like you were certainly onto something in the first version of your post.  I liked the imagery of the blooming rose.    Mentioning that the Celtic fairy tale reminded me of something, but by the time I got to typing this, I forgot what it was.  Um, maybe I'll remember later... 

Lightice: Probably he means original as opposed to the movie version of the manga...

Giovanna wrote:

As for jumping the Biblical references, I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

Reviving to note something about their residence.

We mentioned before that Dios laying in the hay of the barn/cabin reminded us of the birth of Jesus in the manger.  Dios is made visually analogous to Jesus.  Interestingly, it is the scene of his death, not his birth. 

When Jesus is born, in the Bible, it is supposed to be the birth of the messiah, who will help humanity gain God's grace and enter heaven.  I have often noted that the pattern is glossed over by the denominations in which I was raised.  In the Old Testament, humanity sacrificed animals to Yahweh as part of religious rituals.  I was always clearly given the impression that the sacrifice of the animal was a gesture that could be used as a request (or was even a requirement) for the absolution of personal sin.  When Jesus is crucified, meeting his ultimate destiny, the language used is "took all the sins of humanity upon himself"/"died for our sins", and by his death, he gave all future generations an alternative absolution.  So now humanity can pray to Jesus, the penultimate sacrificial lamb, for the forgiveness of personal sins.

We've explored in the past that everyone in the world lacked personal responsibility while they relied on Dios to save them.  With Dios alive, being saved was a passive assurance.  When Dios died, becoming Akio, it made life harder for everyone because they were no longer being saved by a benevolent external force.

In some Christian denominations, the Trinity of God has more prominence than in others.  It's interesting for a nominally monotheistic religion to have a Trinity, a three-in-One God, but hey.  That Trinity is the Father (OT God & NT God), Son (NT Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (mentioned from time to time).  From the perspective of the Trinity, when Jesus was born on earth and went willingly to the crucifix, that was God becoming incarnate in human form, living as a man, and being killed.  In a sense, it was God sacrificing Himself.

In the manger, Dios was dying: killing himself by wearing himself out with Saving.  Now, we can't be 100% sure, in Utena-mythology, if Dios's ultimate destiny was to die.  Yasha's Eros/Thanatos essay (http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=199) and musings by myself & others in prior posts seem to suggest that that, yes, there is compelling evidence that the ultimate mythological destiny of the Prince is death via sacrifice.  The fact that Anthy interferes and that Dios does not complete his sacrifice harkens back to my "Displaced Gods" theory (above) and gives us some explanation for the warping of Akio and the punishment of Anthy.  (Of course, that death would likely have been temporary, much like how Jesus dies, but returns to life and then bodily ascends to Heaven--the 'bodily' part is given more emphasis in some denominations, too.) 

So, anyway, there's no telling what might have happened had Anthy not interfered.  Anthy, however, did interfere.  She was able to alter the process of Dios's death, and he became Akio instead.  Anthy became the sacrifice.  However, this isn't a situation of willing sacrifice, where God sacrifices Himself.  This is a situation of Anthy doing something she shouldn't have done.  She becomes a villain for ruining Dios and a victim eternally punished by humanity.  It's also a situation of God losing his nerve and seeking to preserve Himself.  Dios, too, becomes a villain (using Anthy & humanity for his own selfish ends) and a victim of his own cowardice.

The reason I mention this, how Jesus's birth is compared to Dios's death is this...  Jesus's birth was the beginning of his destiny, heralding his position as savior (and the route to/nature of salvation).  Dios's death was the beginning of his destiny, changing the nature of salvation.  One is a religious grace, however, and the other is very much a personal grace.  Jesus's birth is generally supposed to be an aid to salvation--not making it easy, no--but making it more accessible.  Dios's death makes salvation harder, but human.

Ultimately the thing that breaks the twisted tableau created on the day Dios was 'sealed' is Anthy's own will to save herself.  Instead of being saved, we are enjoined to save ourselves.  To forgive ourselves our own sins and forge our own destinies.  Utena is an anime with a lot to say about personal responsibility and self actualization.  That's why it is symbolic that the event heralding salvation isn't the birth of a savior, but is rather the day a savior God repudiates all he once was.

It may be interesting to note that what is truly "sealed" by Anthy could be all "grace" or "save-ability."  In a way, Anthy represents all of humanity in that coffin.  When she sealed Dios away, she sealed herself away.  She has denied Dios, in a way, consigned herself to a wretched fate and then denied that she had any power to change it.  By extension, humanity is trapped so long as she is, without any recourse.  When Anthy leaves her coffin, she is saving herself and freeing the power of Dios.  Essentially, she is able to free herself because she finally has the will to recognize and use the power of Dios within herself.  Anthy becomes her own rescuer the same way she used to be her own persecutor. 

(And she had to first accept her responsibility for both, I think...  There are signs that Anthy was hoping the whole time for a Prince to save her.  However, she made it an impossible task, because the only Prince that could save Anthy was a Prince she could believe in.  Basically Anthy sets up an impossible dilemma, makes herself into the victim in an untenable situation, then wants someone else to help her out of it.  She's a victim, but she contributes to her own victimization--something that's only possible so long as she displaces ultimate responsibility onto other targets.  Because Anthy's not stupid, however, she knows she made certain bad choices.  She feels keenly that she is also at fault.  It's these conflicts in Anthy that led her to identify as the Witch.  But I think that's probably a post for another day, cuz I've gone on long enough and I feel certain I've meandered far away from my point.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (02-25-2008 08:41:24 PM)

I'll have to look that up!  You won't bother me with it; I've offended my Christian family with my comparison of Jesus to the lambs sacrificed in the Old Testament...which is, I feel, an inarguably self-evident pattern in the religion.... Oh well :-)


Edit:
This is interesting.  It mentions Saul and the nature of blood sacrifice in Christianity.  The author takes a slightly different angle on it and argues that this interpretation was influenced/magnified by Mithraism.  http://dim.com/~randl/tarsus.htm

If you or anyone else finds a good summary of the story you mention, please share!

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (02-26-2008 08:14:55 AM)

Actually, if you read that link I just edited in, you'll see what I mean:

http://dim.com/~randl/tarsus.htm wrote:

This is to say, "If goat's blood will get you some spiritual energy, then the blood of a messiah will get you even more." Paul is reasoning with blood-sacrificing Pagans, trying to appeal to their particular belief system.

But in order to believe the second part of that, you have to believe the first; You have to believe that blood is an effective tool, adequate payment, and that some sacrifices get better results than others from the mysterious "Gods."

Contemporary Christians are not likely to admit this, or even to admit the connection. The idea of actually slashing the throat of a lamb would horrify them; it would be seen as a vile Pagan act; not as what it is, the root of their religion. Church propaganda claims that the whole idea of blood payment was transcended with the crucifixion of Jesus, making it less messy and more profound. Perhaps, but it's still the same Pagan, barbarian recipe.

That may be a bit harsh, but it does explain why some Christians shy away from the comparison.  Depending on your denomination and the depth of your religious instruction, you may or may not have had Christ's sacrifice phrased the exact same way I did--and you might never have heard of the sacrifice of animals in the Old Testament.  You get different emphasis in different churches, though I think that this is, objectively, a notion that should be universal in Christianity.