Well, I didn't mean when I posted that: what if every character was the opposite gender, I meant for specific characters and how we perceive and judge them.  Would fans be more inclined to accept Saionji's backstory as justification for his behavior towards Anthy if he were female?  Or would we be less inclined to accept it?  How would Juri (and to a good extent, Shiori) fans have reacted to a dark-blue-haired woman suddenly popping in for two episodes to toy with their emotions and attempt to 'fix' everything?

It would be nice if we could say that everyone would still treat and envision each character the same regardless, but I do think there are some cases where this wouldn't be so.


Take the Ruka example.  One thing that did honestly peeve me about his character wasn't the harm he did Juri and Shiori, even if for the greater good, but simply because he was a dude!  Juri and Shiori's story was all female action, even the brown-haired boy from their past was faceless and nondescript.  For a show about female empowerment Juri's episode was the first that was No Boys Allowed (Utena and Anthy's struggles and triumphs were heavenly woven into the actions of men: Touga, Akio and Saionji, mostly).  And then this DUDE.  This PRINCELY DUDE comes along, interjects himself into all that girl drama, and not only hurts both women, no in fact, that isn't what bothered me at all, it was that in the end he HELPED them, he was complicated and ambiguously-noble and he did them both a deal of good (Though it is arguable if he had Shiori's interests in mind or if he helped her that much or how much of his actions were driven by desire and spite, etc etc).

  I kinda wanted to see Juri and Shiori work it out on their own, honestly.

But if Ruka had been female, what then?  Would I have not regarded him as "Man coming in to fix all these girly problems" and been better able to see him/her for herself/himself and the part he/she played from the get-go?  How would Juri have treated Ruka?





h man guys I am so wiped this sounds stupid:

Edit:  I actually like Ruka.  But at first his mere presence in that arc irked me.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (04-19-2010 11:07:30 PM)

Let me be the first to confess that I'm a lot more willing to forgive faults in females than I am in males. I know it's not right, but it's just how I am. So I would probably dislike boy!Anthy and constantly yell at him to grow the hell up and get away from that damned manipulative sister of his. And I would probably have a harder time forgiving him for fucking with Mikage's mind the way he did. For that matter, Mikage would become an enormously sympathetic character to me as a female. Warped maybe, but I'd feel more sorry for her than I do boy!Mikage. But the biggest change would probably be Nanami. She's repugnant in so many ways, but I let it go eventually because she's young and confused... and also because she's a girl. Boy!Nanami abusing little girl!Tsuwabuki? No, that would make her as distasteful to me as Touga is now.

So how would I feel about girl!Touga? Probably a lot the way Gio feels toward Akio.

satyreyes wrote:

In a world full of carefully developed, multidimensional characters, Utena is the only one who's genderqueer.  It would be fun to see the companion series, where Utena is the only one enacting his gender conventionally!

Sure, he'd be enacting his gender roles pretty conventionally... except for the fact that he'd still be cross-dressing. Boy!Utena was so inspired by the strong, noble female!Dios that he emulates not only her nobility but her manner of dress. That probably means skirts and poofy blouses (though for convenience's sake, he might wear light pants under his skirt in the same way that Utena wears shorts). The fact that his male classmates find his style of dress genuinely awesome makes the whole situation even more intriguing. (But I don't know if the girls would be jealous as you suggest, minervana... girl!Utena gets along pretty well with the boys at the school, since she shares many of their interests.)

However, I don't think boy!Utena is emulating a princess. We're keeping character behavior the same, so girl!Dios is a female being who goes around rescuing gallant young princes. That isn't princess behavior. But do you realize what fairy-tale figure that does fit? A fairy! Boy!Utena wants to be a noble, beautiful fairy who saves people. This genderswap just keeps getting better and better.

minervana wrote:

6. Akio is a lady. I'm not sure whether that's sexy or not. Like Akio as a guy, she has a hint of androgyny about her. She seduces everyone and everything, including the student council president, the "princess" Utena, her fiancées Dad, and her brother.

Gee, that sounds like somebody we all know, but I'm not sure who...



Seriously though, this is a fascinating thread. The director probably made Nanami and Kozue  the agressors in the relationships because we'd either feel sorry for them or completely dismiss their behavior.  Stormcrow also brought an interesting point up about female Mikage. It would be sad if we excused her behavior just because the character were female.

I would positively despise female Touga. I already have mixed feelings about him as it is, but he'd remind me of so many sluts I knew in high school if he were a girl.  The weird thing is I'm a Kozue fan. I'd also feel sorrier for girl Saionji. If he were female I'd see her as jaded and would not blame her for slapping a man.  It makes me ashamed to realize I have double standards I didn't even know about.

Oh, and if Anthy were a sweet introverted Indian guy I'd totally fangirl over him.

Riri-kins wrote:

I'd also feel sorrier for girl Saionji. If he were female I'd see her as jaded and would not blame her for slapping a man.  It makes me ashamed to realize I have double standards I didn't even know about.

Oh, and if Anthy were a sweet introverted Indian guy I'd totally fangirl over him.

You know, I don't think all double standards are bad. Most domestic violence is male perpetrated, and men are stronger (on average) than women. Slapping someone is still a shitty thing to do, but it's less threatening––and it doesn't imply hidden abuse at home. That's why women's sexual aggression is seen as exciting while male sexual aggression is (rightly) seen as a threat.

I think there would be less of a controversy over male!Anthy's moral value if he were a guy. The "witch or victim?" question would not have so much gray area, because we expect men to take initiative. Plus, there would be more of a sense of betrayal, instead of shock and awe. Imagine, for comparison, if it turned out that Shinji Ikari (Evangelion) was subtly sabotaging everyone around him, caused most of their problems, and his father actually had good reasons for staying the hell away from him. I think the response would be less "Poor guy" and more "What a psychopath!"

I like the idea of a female Mikage/Nemuro. We don't tend to think of women as being "human computers," so I'd be interested to see how the writers would deal with that. How would her relationship with a (male) Tokiko and a prepubescent girl be interpreted?

Last edited by minervana (04-24-2010 07:47:24 PM)

How would a female Nemuro act? I would think like Rei from Evangelion-all monotoned and computer-like, almost like a doll.

Grell Sutcliff wrote:

How would a female Nemuro act? I would think like Rei from Evangelion-all monotoned and computer-like, almost like a doll.

I think she'd act like an automaton, but not quite like a doll -- Nemuro pretty much did what he was told, but I never got the impression he was doing it because he was commanded to. He simply didn't care enough NOT to disobey, if that makes any sense.

I think the dynamics of the Tokiko/Nemuro/Mamiya thing would be completely turned around if Nemuro had been a woman. After all, in that circumstance, she'd have been a career woman who fell in love with a man and his sister and wanted them to all be a happy family. It goes a little against the grain of Utena's princely ideals, I think, and also would echo too strongly Utena's own slip into the Feminine Ideal.

I love this idea! There should definately be some fanart with this idea in mind! Hehe, kinda reminds me of 'The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi.' Hehe, boy!Utena wanting to be fairy, I betcha that there'd be all sort of Cinderella references, him being a Fairy Godmother wannabe! Boy!Anthy sounds adorable!

Tamago wrote:

(PICTURES)

Haha, these are awesome! Thanks!

Wakaba-kun

Cool. He has kind of a Tatsuya look going on, but with perkier hair. Which is very appropriate!

Anthony?

I can just see him being the Miki-esque soft-spoken, fangirl-attracting romantic interest in another shoujo series. With such an innocent, unguarded expression, it's hard to imagine him playing out the creepier parts of the Anthy role, though.

(Actually, couldn't male Anthy just look like fake!Mamiya?)

Akio-chan

Urd!?

For some reason or another, Anji, your male!Utena reminds me of Guybrush Threepwood.

Also, your fem!Akio looks absolutely delicious.

With Miki, you wouldn't need to change much, just add a hint of boobage and his transformation would be complete.

Lololol.

Mikage looks exactly the same.

(Male!Shiori is SO HOT )