Jellineck wrote:

If anyone is familiar with Nietzsche

...did someone say Nietzsche?

You raise some good points, though I suspect it is possible to overdo the phallus/vagina business (not in real life, though). Certainly, dominance is the issue at hand, I think you're right no the money there. All of the duelists have their own responses to Utena's domination. Saionji finds it intolerable and unacceptable, so he keeps coming back for more punishment. Miki doesn't really have a problem with it, he's naturally the submissive type anyway, which is why he alone of the duelists never had a real chance at the Rose Bride, in my opinion. Actually, he'd make a good Rose Bride. Anyway, Nanami flat out refuses to acknowledge Utena's dominance, cheating during the duel, and then continuing her dominance games outside of the duels. Touga is crushed by it. It's probably the first time he's actually been forced to submit (except in the movie...ew), and he has a pretty thorough breakdown. Juri's response seems to be "I never really lost". Like Saionji, she can't tolerate submission, and like Touga, she's never had to do it. So she runs away. Of all the duelists, she actually has the least interaction with Utena outside of the duels, almost none in fact. Is she afraid of her? Could this be why she casts down her rose at the end, not only out of bitterness, but cowardice as well? To preserve in her mind the idea that she could have won?

That wandered off-topic a little I think, sorry. Regarding the Appolonian vs. Dionysian aspect of the duel, that's a fair point as well. Juri's style as a fighter is very precise, and everything about her suggests rigor and structure...except for her chaotic heart. Could be another reason why she lost. And Utena certainly fits into the Dionysian mold in some ways, she's carefree, sloppy, and her fighting style is all over the place. And her heart? Equally chaotic I'd say, though that doesn't become apparent until her duel with Touga. Hmm...not at all sure where I'm going with this...I kind of sputtered out there.

Stormcrow wrote:

Regarding the Appolonian vs. Dionysian aspect of the duel, that's a fair point as well. Juri's style as a fighter is very precise, and everything about her suggests rigor and structure...except for her chaotic heart. Could be another reason why she lost. And Utena certainly fits into the Dionysian mold in some ways, she's carefree, sloppy, and her fighting style is all over the place. And her heart? Equally chaotic I'd say, though that doesn't become apparent until her duel with Touga.

This reminds me of a discussion we had a while back about which of the colors of magic (in the card game Magic: the Gathering) each of the characters fit into.  There are five colors of magic and five student council members, so we very much wanted a neat fit -- each student council member in one color.  Juri is one of the characters we had trouble with, for the very reason you state.  Externally, she's "white" -- disciplined, moral, focused on creating order, Apollonian.  But internally, she's much more "red" -- chaotic, emotional, Dionysian.  We could have gone with either color, but we ended up choosing white because we wanted to reserve red for Nanami.  To make things even more interesting, we had much the same issue, in reverse, for Utena, who's red on the outside and white on the inside.  Ikuni noticed the same thing, of course, accounting for the perfect compositional correspondence between various shots of Utena in Juri's first duel and shots of Juri in her last duel.

I too am reluctant to cry Freud every time a sword penetrates a rose, but in this case I'll make an exception.  The shots Jellineck posted scream "phallic and yonic."  On the other hand, I'd like to believe that Ikuni is a tolerant enough guy not to assume that Juri must have Freudian issues because she's a lesbian.

On the other hand, I'd like to believe that Ikuni is a tolerant enough guy not to assume that Juri must have Freudian issues because she's a lesbian.

Oh, he's obviously very tolerant. I'm not suggesting this indicates his personal belief system. Juri in herself probably does not have significant Freudian issues, but sex as an essence is extremely prevalent in Utena. The series is filled with Freudian imagery. I'm not saying Juri has a Freudian complex; it is part of the world she dwells in. She represents a departure from the female convention, which is why the penetration of the phallic symbol is so important with her. It's showing that not even she and her logic are exempt from the gender trappings of women in Utena. It is women, after all, who suffer considerably more than men. People say this is because of Anthy, and the resultant punishment on her gender.

This might all be exaggeration, but in a show as centered on gender roles and sexual politics, I think it has concrete merit.

I think I need to read more Freud (or at least more about Freud) so that this makes more sense to me.

But it sure sounds smart, don't it?

Last edited by Jellineck (10-29-2007 01:48:22 AM)

ShatteredMirror wrote:

True, if nothing else it makes for an interesting read. But do you have a Freud 101 source that you'd recommend?

ACTION PHILOSOPHERS!


No, seriously. It's entertaining AND educational.

All you really need to know in Freud, here, are the phallic and vaginal symbols. Those are fairly obvious. Getting deeper would be much more difficult, as it's difficult to determine which characters from suffer Oedipal complexes. The infantile sexuality theory might apply here, though.

Nietzsche is much harder to understand on a basic level, because it's difficult to understand one part of his philosophy without looking at the bigger picture. But essentially Appolonian means the mind, rationality, the conduit through which we perceive nature. Dionysian means nature and is essentially represented by sex, wine, and the loss of intellect. Appolonian is usually associated as a masculine trait, while Dionysian is feminine. Hence, my comparison with the Dionysiac witch Anthy and the Appolonian prince Dios.

If they were actually dueling, Juri would probably stab him in the eye... and no amount of cocaine could numb the pain of that.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

If they were actually dueling, Juri would probably stab him in the eye... and no amount of cocaine could numb the pain of that.

...but he might counter with his...cigar.

EDIT: Back to the topic...Freud's sexual symbolism is predicated on well-defined gender roles being the only healthy norm. He certainly considered homosexuality to be a disorder, for example. So if we reject that, and I know I do, what does the symbol of a vagina pierced by a phallus mean to a gay woman? Leaving aside the argument for the moment that Juri wasn't really gay, is it valid to assume that a sword piercing a flower has the same sexual significance to Juri that it does for, say, Saionji? That gets into a very murky area I realize, but it might be interesting to think about.

Last edited by Stormcrow (10-29-2007 08:32:53 PM)

Leaving aside the argument for the moment that Juri wasn't really gay, is it valid to assume that a sword piercing a flower has the same sexual significance to Juri that it does for, say, Saionji? That gets into a very murky area I realize, but it might be interesting to think about.

Actually, I think that has a very large significance. Perhaps I didn't exactly make that clear. I know that no one is really discriminated against based on sexuality in the series, but there is a lot of concentration on gender roles. Juri behaves very different from the other girls of Ohtori, with her powerful presence, attitude, and poise. I think she considers herself a prince when it comes to Shiori: someone who could save and protect their love.

In this way, she fulfills the male role. Yet when Utena reaches outside her female role, there are concentrated efforts to degrade her and "put her in her place" (i.e. Touga). With Juri, the penetrated vaginal symbol not only represents the harm done her most vulnerable area, but it is a distinctly sexual and dominating symbol as well. I think her lesbianism is not so much a key factor to this directly as it is on her gender role.

As for Juri vs. Freud...interesting, but I prefer Akio vs. Freud vs. Kinsey. In a naked mud wrestling match.

In fact, toss out the fight. And Freud and Kinsey.