This is really cool theory, but how did Utena end up in that coffin then? Was it staged? why was there a funeral? Was she given up for adoption, then her adoptive parents died?

I guess I could see the adopted parents dying and then this playing out...

This is one of those theories that have been floating about for ages and while I don't subscribe to it you have made a great case for it. I prefer 'my' rather oddball theory in which Mikage is Utena's *son* but it's just a crackpot idea that amuses me.


Is Tokiko only in her 30's, though? It has been a long time since I watched  these episodes and need a rewatch but from what I recall she seemed older. I was under the impression that she was in her 40's when she met Akio in the present timeline.

There is another anime that may be worth mentioning here, I will spoiler-tag the entire discussion since many may not have seen it:

[Stardriver. It shares some of its staff with SKU and while it is not half as multi-layered it does play with a few similar themes. It features as canonical a situation that is very much like the fan-theory of Mikage and Tokiko: the villain ends up being the hero's father who has not aged. Head, said father, has remained in a state of 'frozen time' very much like Mikage and just like him he let an intense obsession over a convuloted plan completely derail his sanity. Head appears to be the same age as Takuto, his son, and I can't exactly recall what happened to the mother but she does leave the island. She is also deeply disappointed with Head, then 'Tokio's', turn for the insane.

Head has something of a warped perception of time which is doubly ironic considering his original name was 'Tokio'. But unlike Mikage from what I remember Head gets away with all the pain he caused almost- if not entirely-scot free. Head has no major breakdown and at the end of the series he seems to sort of shrug it all off.

There is also an interesting parallel between Mikage and the You twins but that is not very germane to this particular discussion.]

Her aunt was raising her in the manga, so there's that. But, really, the show never deals with anyone's parents except in odd little fugues or hey, Anthy's your stepmom.

It could just be thematic, too, but really, with SKU more than most things being thematic is more real than being narratively real.

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

Hey I just found this thread that you were talking about in the other Mikage thread. I do think your kitten, rose petal, and pink baggage theory makes sense now that I see it. But my question is, how come the show never revealed Utena was adopted? Also it seems that Mikage never slept with Tokiko.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Her aunt was raising her in the manga, so there's that. But, really, the show never deals with anyone's parents except in odd little fugues or hey, Anthy's your stepmom.
It could just be thematic, too, but really, with SKU more than most things being thematic is more real than being narratively real.

Utena is heavily symbolic and theatrical, all the duel song lyrics even the opening are meticulously pinned in specific moments, they put a lot on effort on symbolism. They never fully *show* it and yet, in Nemuro's episode, we are given pointing hands, blinking and beeping, almost begging us to pay attention. They don't bother in giving us so much about other antagonists (look at Akio or at Touga, we know almost nothing of them by the end of the series), but with Nemuro is veeery different. We get to see his point of view, we get to explore it all, they want us to see it. Why would they want us to pay *so* much attention on Nemuro's backstory? Why the 70s theme on all his memories? Why defining a timeline? There is simply no need for it. And the shadow girls monologue its simply too much to ignore.

In addition, Mikage/Utena also have strong parallelisms in their narratives; we are hinted that Nemuro was attracted to men (as seen in the blinking hands pointing at two scientists holding hands), he probably did have some sort of feelings for Mamiya. These feelings become explicit in his idealized version of himself (Mikage), while in their time together probably never had the chance to even understand those feelings. Tokiko was a respectable lady who showed him interest and eventually he felt used by her. Tokiko is in many ways Nemuro's "prince": that person that in fairy tales was supposed to share a happy ending with him. If Utena has a triangle between two siblings (Akio/Anthy), Nemuro also had his triangle between siblings (Tokiko/Mamiya). One of the siblings is an older person of the opposite gender (Akio/Tokiko, the "princes"), while the younger being of the same gender (Anthy/Mamiya, the "princesses"). Even if they show us just a small hint of Nemuro's shattered mind, they don't need or want to show it all, but instead they fill the episode with symbols everywhere, in every minute. They don't need to show something explicitly in order to show it in other ways, and parallelisms is just one of them. Utena had sex with her prince, it wouldn't be hard to mirror Nemuro falling for the same.

Akio and Tokiko are two adults in a world of teenagers, they hold power, have their own agenda and can use sex as a tool. Tokiko had a very clear goal and manipulated Nemuro for it, learning this hard reality is what eventually destroyed him. Arguably, this also happens to Utena with Akio, plus explicit sex. Why wouldn't we believe Tokiko could take it just as far?

Let's remember that Mikage and Nemuro are not exactly the same character, Mikage is just a shadow / ideal version and almost ghostly-like manifestation of someone who lived in Ohtori several years ago. Mikage is a shadow of someone else, and if Nemuro was indeed Utena's father, she's dueling against the shadow of her father, not her actual father.

Last edited by pesimistamente (05-13-2016 09:25:29 PM)

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I think Mikage's burning the building was out of revenge after realizing Tokiko was using him.

I never thought of it that way but makes some sense. I always thought he was deluded in that point as well, that he was being manipulated by Anthy!Mamiya and fullfilling the "sacrifice" Akio asked him to do.

But maybe that's also a heavily dissorted memory as well, since I'm pretty sure Real!Mamiya was dead at that point already. That could fix timelines a little bit, if Mikage's memory of Anthy!Mamiya was just an illusion and not an actual fact; Nemuro might have burned the building down out of revenge, and in Mikage's version he burned it down to help someone out.

Damn.

BlueRoseTree wrote:

I've always thought the Mikage & Mamiya couple was a dark version of Utena & Anthy, hence the parallels, although coloristically Mikage and Mamiya are actually "washed out" Utena and Anthy (compare the colors of their respective hair, skin, clothing):

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380863982

If we assume that Nemuro started from a similarly selfless point as Utena (venturing to "gain eternity" in order to save Mamiya) and failed, or realized halfway through that he was being played by Tokiko, and ended up going insane/turning evil (the murdered boys, the black rose instead of a white one, the relationship with Mamiya fully consummated), then we could see it as a simulation of what could potentially happen to Utena if she ended up as yet another promising duelist that didn't make it.

The washed out colors seem to suggest that they are indeed shadows of a previous batch of puppets that are being recycled to spice up the current game.

I was thinking Mikage really was her dad since Tokiko does look explicitly like Utena. However, your analysis sounds really good too. Like you say, He could just be a foil to Utena while they are so much alike physically.

pesimistamente wrote:

This is just for bonus but apparently pink turtle necks was the unofficial 90's anime mom's uniform.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eva … 0707173608

http://ohtori.nu/gallery/var/resizes/Se … 1380853758

Holy shit. Dollars to donuts this was not an accident. SKU and Eva are like the incestuous pairing of anime.

Well supposedly Anno is a huge like fanboy of Ikuhara, and their conversations kind of imply more of a one way direction influence. But I bet I could still find some Evangelion in SKU...it'll just be more subtle I think that Anno literally doing homages.

Seriously, if there are Eva references in Utena that we haven't seen, I'd be so impressed. Now you've got my hopes up!