I'm one of the few (maybe, even the only one?) that thinks that Utena did end up in the same kind of trouble that Dios did. She failed in a manner similar, but not exactly the same way. It's true that Dios saved things for the heck of it, while she tried to save a friend, but the failure is no less bitter because of it. So I think that instead of creating a world, she left, like a lonely wraith, to wander the Ends of the Earth, forever trying to atone for what she thinks she hasn't done.

Utena isn't one for creating worlds - she's too... Naive for that, possibly? How do you create a world when everything's so simple to you? At the end, of course, it's not nearly so simple in the beginning - but her general emotions seems to be "I've tried and failed at the most important thing in MY life". Emphasized for something that Dios didn't have - he didn't really even have an ego. So, I think that's why their predicaments would be rather different. Come, aid and disappear, possibly - winding up like Dios, but not like Akio.  Yet. If Anthy gets to her on time, and is able to work with more elaborateness this time around.

My own "what if"... Heck, I'd like to see Ruka and Jury work together on the student council. Were they like Jury and Miki later on ('cause subjectively it seems to me that way)? What did their relationship look like? What would've happened had Jury sorted out her personal problems before, and should Ruka have remained on the council? Things like that, yes.

And, as a very personal "what if": I wonder what would have happened, should there have been a Magician archetype in here, instead of the combination of Devil and Witch? What would a Magician do inside an illusory world? Magicians are creatures who take apart and are taken apart, and then struggle to put everything they've done back together. What would a Magician and a Witch do together? Alternatives, alternatives..

OnionPrince wrote:

As for the Magician archetype, perhaps that role is already filled to an extent by the shadow play girls...? They seem like part of the illusion, but at the same time they seem to display the ability to disect and understand that illusion. Just a thought.

Fascinating.

While I'm not inclined toward EvilUtena myself, it's not that hard to imagine. Utena riding around on her horse, saving people all the time is an image that springs to mind pretty readily. The question of how or why she might end up as the Ends of the World kinda depends on how Akio got there. I can speculate on a few different scenarios, but I'm partial to the limitations argument. Dios wasn't infinite, and he got to the point where he couldn't help enough people...perhaps he failed spectacularly in one case? "The stone called 'It Was' cannot be moved"? And perhaps this was Akio's motivation to be a duelist? To seek the power of eternity, his own power, but without limits, to be able to save everyone again? Sorry, rambling there, but I could see something very similar happening to Utena, who also has a very hard time recognizing her own limitations, and doesn't cope with them well when they confront her. I could even see Wakaba trying to protect her and ending up as her Rose Bride, but Wakaba seems a little too grounded for that...actually, Wakaba's earthiness could even be the deciding factor that prevents Utena from becoming the Ends of the World in such a scenario. Or not.

morosemocha wrote:

And in addition to that, what other "What If's" have you always wondered about?

Edit: Haha, go me, breaking 2700.

What if the Black Rose saga had not been wiped out of everyone's memory, how would the subsequent events unfold? I've always wondered whether Utena would have taken Mikage's lesson and realised that her memories too were less than accurate.

A "what if" question that I'd love to have answered, even if it might not serve much of a purpose in the series, is what would have happened if other duelists had brought about the revolution. I personally think that given the right circumstances any duelist could have achieved Utena's status of revolutionary. The student council lagged behind and Mikage's case is particular (it was either complete and absolute failure or it had some redemptive value) but had they been able to break free of their many constraints they too would have been revolutionary.

Oh, yes, the Mikage saga. I was always somewhat disappointed that everyone forgot - since Mikage is one of my three utmost favorites, and did quite a lot to influence Ohtori's life, it just seemed very unfair that he was forgotten. It was also curious that everyone forgot Utena in much the same way. I guess when you get close to revolution - whether you ascend or descend to it - the last game is sink or swim.

I'd say the Duelists do have some unconscious memory of what happened - they do treat the others... Somewhat differently for a time. And, possibly, this is part of what created the transformed Ohtori in the end.

As for Utena not doing anything about Wakaba... Heck. I don't know what I would have done, were I Utena. On a neighboring thread Brian talked about how hard it would be to be a person like Shiori, because what the heck do you do with unrequited love and lust? Same here. What do you do with a person who wants to be someone, and doesn't care whom, except try to give her a goal to actually do something and space to grow? I've no idea. If someone can enlighten me on the subject, I'd actually be grateful.

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing.  Would Utena have beleived her?  Would she have been prepared for Anthy's betrayal at the end, or could she possibly have avoided it alltogether?  Turned Anthy on Akio, even?  The entire ending of the series might have been dramatically altered if Utena had been (as dollface metioned) less oblivious to what was going on around her.

Well, Nanami did indirectly tell Utena in episode 32. "It gives those two an excuse to sleep together," "that perverted brother and sister," etc. Of course, Utena is still far too naive to believe what she's trying to say. (It's fairly common in Japan for family members to sleep next to each other, which is why Utena brushes it off so easily, though I find it hard to imagine many teenage girls who share futon space with their older brothers...)

If Nanami put it bluntly enough for her to understand it, I still don't think she would have believed her. As trusting as Utena is, Nanami's constant antagonism and attempts at sabotage probably don't put her in the most trustworthy light. Even if the trusting Utena took Nanami at her word, I'm not sure how much it would change. If Akio still needs to keep Utena fighting to save Anthy, or if he still feels like seducing her, he'd find a way. I bet there would have at least been more tension along the lines of the creepy tea & cookies scene, though.

Frosty wrote:

ArsenicForBreakfast wrote:

I always wondered what would have happened if Nanami had been able to tell Utena what she'd seen Akio and Anthy doing.

Yes, thank you!!! I wondered the exact same thing, "What would happen if Utena found out about this? Tell her, Nanami!" Then, the moment came when Utena herself walked in. I thought she would instantly pull her sword and duel!!! But no, morning comes and she wants a date!

If anything, she might have been a bit more leery of Akio, and mistrusting him even a little bit would have helped.

Even if she was confronted, Anthy would handle it the same way she gets away with everything else:

(Image Removed)
"Oh dear, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. It must have been your imagination. "

As for the "date" the day after Utena walked in on them, I'm like 92.5% sure that Utena just wanted to get Akio alone and ask him about it, but she couldn't work up the guts to do so. (That's happened to me more times than I can remember.) I wonder, though, what Akio would have said or done if Utena did demand an explanation...

Didn't they do that in the sequel?

Yasha, I thought I asked you to return it!