You have to remember that Anthy wasn't always without free will. She genuinely cared for Dios, more than the princesses of the world and the people Dios tried to save from misfortune. When she assumed the identity of the Rose Bride, she resigned herself to the fate of a seeming vacuous and impressionable mentality, all for the sake of assisting Akio in becoming a Prince again. Even by that token, she is more of a Prince than either Utena or Akio.

Those are my two cents, and you may feel free to disagree all you wish. We're not stating solid facts, we're analysing symbolism and expostulating theories. Opinions, my friend, just opinions...

I was going to write a post completely agreeing with Jellineck's until I read what Dyepez wrote. I had forgotten that, no, Anthy isn't as much of a sympathetic character as we'd like to believe. Her initial actions with Dios were definitely sacrificial and prince-like, according to the series' image, but most of her actions from then on were anything but that. It seems like Anthy shone for a moment in that position, and was then pushed back into a submissive position of princess... or, perhaps, as the hordes initially labeled her, a 'witch'.

Anthy manipulates any and all around her, and displays an apparent loss of normal human emotion. It's as if she's allowed herself to assume the position delegated to her by the admirers of Dios; a witch-like, inhuman character. A prince never loses nobility; that is the one trait Dios claims Utena must retain to accomplish her dream. Anthy loses every ounce of her nobility - she gleamed of it when protecting Dios, and her actions at that time were truly regal and selfless. But throughout the series, she allows herself to be belittled and hurt by others, including her brother. Although they work together, he is clearly using his past image and her devotion to make her act in his little scheme. She cannot be a prince because she's lost the prime qualities a prince must have.

But, at the end of the series, I definitely think she regains that prince-like status. I wouldn't say, though, that she's more of a prince than Utena. Utena has her ups and downs, and her nobility definitely falters quite a few times. In the end, however, it's Utene who exhibits prince-like behavior before Anthy does. She sacrifices her love for Akio in fighting and, unlike Anthy who allowed herself to remain entrapped after sacrificing herself, doesn't lie down and stay put after being stabbed by the one she wishes to protect. Anthy let Akio destroy her, even if she did save him. Her prince-hood hit a peak, and then was lost. Yet, when Utena meets her peak when choosing the save the Rose Bride, she doesn't give in even after being betrayed by her object of affection like Anthy. She does what Anthy could not; protect an individual, and save them at the same time. Anthy couldn't save herself or Akio, but Utena keeps her own being in check and manages to save the Rose Bride as well.

Anthy does, though, finally attain that nobility at the very end. And, as the opening sequence initially leads us to believe(they're both in armor riding horses), she meets Utena on her prince level and continues to live her life as such.

Last edited by Adrasteia (11-26-2007 06:40:30 PM)

Hmm, yes I do see what you mean, and as you said, the series is very interpreted. However, if you are going to claim that Utena is not a prince, it is difficult to support that Anthy instead deserves that role.

Sacrifice is a possible trait for defining a prince, but you are saying that Utena's sacrifice was less prince-like than Anthy's, which doesn't seem fair. Even though Utena didn't liberate Anthy in the expected sense, nobody's actions before her's could relieve Anthy of her position. Utena's inspiration was in fact shown through her own sacrifice; she, like Anthy, took a sword for the one she loved, and moreso, by the one she loved. Utena may not have experienced the same trials as Anthy, nor the same level of suffering associated with her sacrifice. But she took one sword for trying to protect and save the rose bride and then, like Anthy, took many swords at the end. The only difference between the two characters in this respect is that one sacrificed herself and reaped nothing for it, only a deluded and cruel sibling, and the other sacrificed herself with successful results. Instead of being trapped in Ohtori, Utena was cast out of it - she lost her ideals, her hopes, and her few friends. That in itself is a massive sacrifice - Anthy did experience pain, and entrapment, but Utena had to sacrifice her whole identity of being a prince. I believe that actually made her a true prince in the end; through saving Anthy with inspiration and unhampered loyalty, she showed that instead of being princesses, all girls have the potential to be princes. That is why I believe they are both princes of equal caliber at the end. Utena gave a different kind of sacrifice, but it is cruel to rob this character of her final status. Although I don't necessarily think she became a prince according the the initial series definition, she did in her own right become one.

It is only in the end where Utena recognizes that she cannot save Anthy that she realizes this. The very best she can be is a friend who provides inspiration. Anthy has to take the step to save herself.

What you've said about Anthy is true - she saved herself after witnessing Utena's example. But Utena metaphorically sacrificed her own life to provide that inspiration. She took the thousand swords, previously Anthy's burden, so Anthy could finally be free to make her own decision and be free from her bondage. Utena took her place as the sacrifice, and would have chosen to become a sacrifice for Anthy as Anthy did for Dios. Again, the difference between these two characters is not that one made a sacrifice and the other didn't, but one's sacrifice amounted to something meaningful. Had Anthy not redeemed herself and reclaimed her individuality, I believe Utena would be trapped in the same position as the Rose Bride had been before.

[I don't mean to crusade over your thread - I love debating this and absolutely respect your opinions. ]

Sacrifice...it's something most of the characters in the show do in some way or another, though it's often quite twisted. Even Saionji sacrifices his relationship with Wakaba for his triumphant return to campus, though that one's a bit of a stretch. The closest any of the other characters come to the kind of selfless sacrifice that is so widely admired is probably Ruka, because he actually gives up one thing he desperately wants, Juri, for the sake of someone else, Juri. Here we also see how sacrifice can be pretty fucked up. Utena gives up her lust for Akio for the sake of her friendship with Anthy, Anthy gives up a life without a million swords piercing her for the sake of her brother, Dios gives up his family, and it might even be said his identity, for the sake of the women of the world. I'm not sure when I'll get near a point here.

If the prince is someone who puts the needs of others before their own, then it seems that Dios was indeed a prince. He's the ultimate expression of the faceless chameleon that kind of attitude requires. He expends every drop of his spirit, holding nothing back for himself (Nietzsche). Seen in this light, Anthy does indeed become a witch. Perhaps Dios was strong enough for his sacrifice on his own, but when Anthy tried to shoulder some of his burden, he lost his nerve? Perhaps even out of pity for her, his sister?

Of course, we don't see Dios at work much...although I think of Dios as merely a state of being that any character COULD achieve, by demonstrating nobility, but none of them do. During the actual show, Anthy is certainly the one carrying the load, Atlas-like. No, I'm not going to get objectivist here, I can't help it if it's a great image. The difference between her and Dios seems to be one of consciousness. Dios knows full well that he is the prince, and acts accordingly. Anthy makes her sacrifices out of a sense of obligation, expecting curses in return. Not exactly prince-like in my opinion, but it certainly has more pathos. To me, a prince is less inclined to make certain moral compromises than Anthy, which may be why she is more effective. Anthy also lacks the panache expected from a prince, but that's more of my personal opinion I suppose.

I think Jellineck makes an interesting point, but I must respectfully disagree. For one thing, I view the concept of the prince in SKU as generally a good (albeit unrealistic and self-destructive) ideal.

Jellineck wrote:

In many ways, Anthy is the prince in their relationship. Akio does little to nothing to support or protect Anthy, while Anthy willingly sacrifices all of her happiness to complete his. She protects him from the swords of hate and supplies him with all he needs to build a world of his desires.

That doesn't strike me as saving someone, or even helping someone. By assisting Akio in this fashion, she is just an enabler. Even if you believe that she willfully makes sacrifices to allow her brother to continue with his derranged life, she doesn't do it because it's the right thing to do for him or anyone. That isn't princely, it's a textbook case of codependency.

Then again, if you view Dios as someone who lets humanity become weak and dependent from saving them from all their ills, I could see where you're coming from.

Utena, in my mind, is not a prince. Rather than 'save' Anthy, she inspired Anthy to save herself. Anthy was the one who cast off the shackles of being a sacrifice and leaves.

If not for Utena's genuine sacrifice, do you think Anthy would have ever broken out of that endless cycle of torment? Personally, I doubt it. Anthy is effectively just another victim in an abusive relationship, powerless to make the simple decision to get up and leave, and can only lash out at others in response to her own frustration. Utena saved her as surely as if she flew in on a jetpack and carried her away. (Except, even that wouldn't work.)

Anthy was the only one who took it upon herself to save Dios when she thought he needed it. In other words, she played prince to the prince. Although not entirely dedicated, she took upon every sacrifice to sustain Akio's illusion. In the definition of the prince I gave, related to the negative context of the show, I found that Anthy actually best fits that role.

Sure, Anthy only had the best of intentions when she saved Dios. Anyone can sympathize with that. But after all, the result was far worse than if the prince had simply died. (Who knows if that's even possible?)

That's my take on it, anyway.

Jellineck wrote:

How can an unrealistic and self-destructive ideal be a good one? Oh, the prince is perceived as good. But more often than not the impact of that ideal is negative.

Because that ideal is helping others. The only thing I see wrong with the prince archetype is that pure altruism cannot last. A hero who sacrifices everything for others will soon have nothing left to give. Everyone who benefits from such heroism will perceive it as good, though. If there is some other negative impact that you're talking about, I have no clue what it is. Can you give me an example?

Here I'll play devil's advocate and say that Anthy is morally superior in this respect because she makes the sacrifice despite the negative results.

I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree here. Sacrifice that yields negative results is at best pointless, at worst completely immoral. To use a real world parallel, say a woman's husband comes home drunk and beats the crap out of her daily. She refuses to do anything except cover for him. "Oh, I fell down the stairs. No, he really loves me; I'm just not good enough." She only perpetuates her own suffering, and she allows his evil to continue unabated. Anthy does exactly that. How is that moral?

Utena is a most surprising series, and the fandom reflects that trend. And thank you very much! Do I get s?

This is indeed a fascinating topic. I'm not qualified to hand out poptarts (I had to dig deep in the threads to even get the running joke), but here's a school smiley, since you've provided different points of view to learn about.

Well, just a short babble.. After reading one of the first few post, I just really have to say I disagree of Anthy being prince.

Yes she did sacrifice her happiness, and everything else for the one she loves, namely her brother.. But I don't think that what defines a true prince.. In my opinion, she is the "Rose Bride" and really nothing else..

Like Japanese women, Anthy said she thinks that all girls in the end are "Rose Brides", following whoever they are engaged to, sacrificing everything they are.. And they become a lifeless doll.

News in Japan? I heard a news a boyfriend killed his girlfriend because he was jealous of her when she talks with other men.. And guess what? They let the guy go free..
THERE IS NO JUSTICE!!

So, she was acting as Akio's engaged wife.. Or for the matter also, every winner in the duelist's whims and desires..
They get to have Anthy the key to their illusionary dreams because she is like a lifeless doll, so they can play "dreamworld" with the doll..

satyreyes wrote:

On a side note, I certainly don't think Ruka makes a selfless sacrifice, for two reasons: it's not selfless, and it's not sacrifice.  He loves Juri, so her happiness is tied with his own, hence he's not being selfless; and he's not sacrificing anything, since he has no chance with her anyway (she's gay, and he's dying).

This makes me note a difference between the sacrifices, princely or not, that Anthy, Utena, and Ruka make. Only Ruka knows what the consequences of his actions are, he knows what he's doing will work, at the cost of any care Juri may have ever had for him, and probably his own already failing health. Anthy is slightly closer to this, I think she must have understood on some level there would be consequences, because she makes no effort at all to lessen the blow she's dealing to those that would seek to punish her for it. No doubt this is fueled by spite and hatred, but I don't think it can be easily argued that Anthy realized what was coming. Probably suspected it wouldn't be pleasant, but no more than that. (After all if all these assholes have swords why don't they kill the fucking dragon?) Utena acts from a state of almost complete ignorance. She hasn't a clue in hell what her actions are leading up to, and she doesn't understand a sacrifice must be made here, or that it'll be her. (I don't think Akio realized that either, I always got the impression his fear in the last moments was that the swords would come after him.)

That said, Utena's actions are clearly princelike, by the most standard definition. She's suffering for the one she cares about, but she isn't approaching it as a sacrifice to make, but a battle to fight. Anthy's 'sacrifice' was really more of an enraged open rebellion and kidnapping that resulted in a lot of punishment. (If you don't entirely go with the SPG version, at least in both versions we get Dios consistently resists Anthy's holding him back.) I've never looked at her actions in the flashback as noble or sacrificing. However, the rest of her life considered, I really love what Jellineck's suggesting here.

If the purpose of this whole thing is to suffer on behalf of another, Anthy gets eight Oscars and ten Emmys. Question, as you should, the wisdom of laying so great a sacrifice on an altar like Akio's, but if sacrifice makes for a prince, Anthy is most certainly one. Utena didn't know she was about to sacrifice anything but the pain and danger involved in a fight. (The threat of death is there, but since she assumes hope of winning, she's not really sacrificing so much as taking a risk.) Ruka is making a sacrifice somewhat cheapened by that it will not change his very, very immediate fate much anyway. Anthy wakes up day after day, knowing full what what she sacrifices, how, and for what and yet continues to do it.

Jellineck wrote:

Now that brings up a question about something very essential about Anthy's character. Is Anthy, in fact, so masochistic to the point that the pain is a reward for her? There are elements of it in the series. For instance, she often provokes attacks against her. Out of enjoyment or the necessity of manipulation, it's hard to say. If I established that Anthy's sacrifice was due PURELY to masochistic selfishness, then my argument would be very different. But I would say she tries to enjoy the pain as a coping mechanism. She has a tremendous amount to deal with. It is the only way for her to survive. I'd say that she predominantly suffers, more to the extent than gaining pleasure from her position. While she might enjoy finally playing princess to her brother, she also recognizes her own imprisonment and pain. And in that is the pain inherent to true sacrifice.

Well, I don't know if I buy this, but here's an offering: Anthy sacrifices herself to sustain Akio's existence, which he in exchange pretends is devoted somehow to attempting to alleviate this weight she must carry. So in theory, and potentially in her mental operations, Anthy associates sacrifice with the promise of reward, so that the sacrifice she makes, which is very much a punishment inflicted on her, carries with it the potential of peace. Sacrifice leading to reward, punishment leading to peace. In her mind then would be the idea that she must continue to suffer if she has not earned her freedom yet. Spill that over into her life beyond the swords and you could easily have someone who doesn't enjoy pain, isn't truly masochistic, but seeks out pain, seeks out punishment and suffering. Maybe as nothing more than trained habit, maybe in the hopes that adding to the immediately suffering will shorten the length of her imprisonment. That's a small but distinct difference from her using pain as a coping mechanism.

On the flipside, with a case like Saionji or Nanami, it's so very easy to relate her behavior not to an interest in the pain it leads to, but rather a sadistic glee in irritating and bringing out the worst in people she hates, that remind her of those that cast the swords on her. Perhaps that is her function as the 'witch', and was all along. Saving Dios made the world focus all its hatred on her, it brought out the worst in one million people, that would sooner stab a child over and over for all eternity than take on responsibility for themselves. Saionji and Nanami are certainly at their worst as people when dealing with Anthy, and this is even the case for Miki, if you lower the standards to account for his relative innocence. Juri, who almost always prefers to brood, lashes out at her. And if you really wanna play with it, look at the influence she's had on her brother.

OnionPrince wrote:

Because that ideal is helping others. The only thing I see wrong with the prince archetype is that pure altruism cannot last. A hero who sacrifices everything for others will soon have nothing left to give. Everyone who benefits from such heroism will perceive it as good, though. If there is some other negative impact that you're talking about, I have no clue what it is. Can you give me an example?

This made me think of the old 'Give a man a fish and he'll be fed for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his life.' The danger in a prince, as an archetype, as someone that sacrifices everything, is also that it protects people too much. Under the care of a prince like Dios, people never learn to fight their own battles or sort out their own priorities. I think this is illustrated very well by the French restaurant bit. This girl is lonely, but rather than letting that lead to self-exploration or an honest attempt to find a partner, Dios jumps in with the temporary fix, though ultimately it won't alleviate her loneliness because he has other things to do that focus all attention on her. It's the difference between constantly depending on an outside source to save your ass over and over, and what Utena does in using the prince as her ideal, as a source of inner strength. She chose to emulate the prince, what was admirable about him, rather than be a princess waiting for him to save her again. What it really such a good idea? Maybe, maybe not, but it was a much better application of free will.

Anyway I should probably shut up. I'm out of practice at the analysis. BTW, Jellineck, you most certainly get . Many. I'm really glad to see analysis kicking around on here.

Giovanna wrote:

(After all if all these assholes have swords why don't they kill the fucking dragon?)

...Yeah! I never thought of that! What the hell?
Knowing humans, though, they were probably using those swords on each other most of the time.

This made me think of the old 'Give a man a fish and he'll be fed for a day, teach him to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his life.' The danger in a prince, as an archetype, as someone that sacrifices everything, is also that it protects people too much. Under the care of a prince like Dios, people never learn to fight their own battles or sort out their own priorities. I think this is illustrated very well by the French restaurant bit. This girl is lonely, but rather than letting that lead to self-exploration or an honest attempt to find a partner, Dios jumps in with the temporary fix, though ultimately it won't alleviate her loneliness because he has other things to do that focus all attention on her. It's the difference between constantly depending on an outside source to save your ass over and over, and what Utena does in using the prince as her ideal, as a source of inner strength. She chose to emulate the prince, what was admirable about him, rather than be a princess waiting for him to save her again. What it really such a good idea? Maybe, maybe not, but it was a much better application of free will.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. I had almost forgotten about the message behind that scene. The Prince is a simple ideal from simpler times. Hmm, now I'm starting to wonder if Dios intervening in Utena's duels was the same sort of help-- a temporary fix without consideration of the long term consequences...?

I've never looked at her actions in the flashback as noble or sacrificing.

The problem with arguing Anthy traces back to this - http://www.ohtori.nu/analysis/07_azusa_anthy_mirror.htm.

Even in terms of symbolism, which are often fairly consistent in this show (Akio's car, Juri's locket, etc.), Anthy is a myriad of various interpretations. Her glasses occasionally represent an innocent schoolgirl entrapped within her confines, at other times a faintly glowing and ominous symbol of malicious intentions. Even her body proportions change drastically based on what role she fulfills.

My point is that it is immensely hard to establish any sort of interpretation of her that has enough support. I would say that she could potentially be acting from the selfish desire to possess her brother as prince and thus turn herself into a princess. But I don't agree that she wasn't aware of the consequences. After all, this was an enormous mob practically clamoring for blood. They had pitchforks, torches, and were in a state of rage and panic. I don't think that by declaring herself to be the one who took their beloved prince away, standing before them with absolutely no protection, that she was believing she would escape punishment.

The series Anthy feels the need to be punished because it is all she knows, though I'd say it is still mixed with some devotion to her brother that slowly degenerates with Utena's influence. I do, however, believe that Anthy's sacrifice was genuine. Not that Akio states that it might be true, though there is doubt. Pain changes a person. It could be that she started out an innocent, filled with the fiery dedication that we see later in Utena. But later she understandably develops into someone who must be selfish in her way to survive.

Anyway that made me think, Jellineck, does the element of selfishness at all factor into the prince as a creature of suffering?

Let me make sure I understand that. Are you asking if the trait of selfishness would detract from someone being a prince?

So Anthy is, in a lot of ways, the most unhealthy incarnation of the Prince.  Perhaps because she is a girl (considering the inflexible way the series presents the Prince archetype) Anthy becomes a twisted Prince when she attempts to step out of her boundaries.

I really like what you brought up, and I agree. By calling Anthy a prince, I am not putting her in a more positive light. She represents the consequences of a sacrifice, the eternal enduring of her own pain, the repetitive surface to others, and the fulfillment of a meaningless role. Her outfit itself is a feminine mockery of the prince uniform. But despite her actions, she could never considered the prince in the series. Because she's a girl.

And thanks for the s, Gio!

Ack! A posting here! '

I think that the nature of sacrifice is deeply dependent upon the degree to which one suffers. Whether they have willingly accepted that suffering is also critical. Clearly, it is Anthy who suffers the most out of the three. True, Ruka apparently dies, but I've always taken that to refer to the graduation that Akio mentions in Mikage's case. Once someone serves their purpose and has no reason to remain at the school, there is some method by which they leave. After all, Ruka had already left once. He openly doubted his ability to defeat Utena - the only person to realize the blatant fact that the odds were stacked very heavily in her favor and defeating her was damn near impossible. And he seems to have a passing familiarity with Akio, but the man doesn't to faze him much. And finally, he duels perfectly several times with no sign of illness.

Utena takes the swords at the very end as well, but she does not become the new Rose Bride. Once she has freed herself of her illusion of the prince and rescued Anthy from her coffin, there is no reason to stay at Ohtori. She may have died within the world of Ohtori, as Ruka did, but the seemingly omniscient Anthy states that she is somewhere outside. Therefore, she did suffer, but her suffering was not equivalent to that of Anthy's.

Anthy was held both by her sacrifice and her willingness to bear the pain. After all, she could have just done as Utena eventually did and leave Ohtori. We see at the end there is nothing stopping her. But she makes the decision to remain, to suffer. She is not entirely happy with it, as it is pointed out, and it becomes a routine after a while. However, it is still a sacrifice. Since suffering characterizes sacrifice, and sacrifice characterizes the prince, and Anthy suffers and thus sacrifices the most...I think it goes further to support my argument.