I don't have much to say cause i'm leaving right now, but I know a LOT of people who have been friends since they were kids, and no matter HOW they hate eachother, they never break it off.

For all we know, they could be stuck together. They could have not signed up for school together, and got to the student council and been like FUCK.

Really, I think they never did un-friend, and Touga just turned EVIL, but Saionji never left him, even if he greatly disapproves.

randomprojects: Saionji puts people on pedestals and gets angry when they're not as perfect as he'd like.

Oooh I like this thought.

I think Saionji was friends with Touga in the past, but doesn't consider him his friend in the present.

EPISODE 9: "THE CASTLE SAID TO HOLD ETERNITY"
Touga:  Don't look at me so grimly... my dear friend.
Saionji:  Who's your dear friend?
Touga:  How heartless...
Touga:  Aren't you my one and only friend?
Saionji:  Enough!
Saionji:  I'll NOT be defeated by the likes of you!

I think Touga calls Saionji his 'friend' because it pushes a button. He calls him his 'one and only friend' because he's hinting that Saionji wishes for their friendship to be so much more, while knowing through Touga's actions that Touga doesn't feel to the same extent (about anything really, at least up until the very end). And Touga likes to push buttons, and be in control, like hollow said.

I think of them being in that horrible position of being 'meant-to-be somethings'. Let me explain.
In a different life, with a different past (without coffin girl ruining everything, at least in Saionji's warped interpretation), with a different present, under different circumstances etc etc etc...

They could have been best friends. Or best somethings. Something special and amazing of some sort. Who knows what.

And they both sense that, but the tragedy is that in THIS life, with THESE choices that they've both made, and their opposing goals and clashing egos...
They are 'frenimies' instead. (Great word minervana!).

Adding to your thoughts on power and control, sharnii and hollow_rose, I think that Touga's feelings towards Saionji have two very different dimensions; the beginning and end of the series. In this aspect, I think this analysis is very deeply connected to the question of Touga's feelings towards Utena. As she inspires him to question his status as a dashing superficial playboy, his association with Saionji actually becomes more of a real friendship. In the beginning, we see him pretty much treating Saionji like a pet, just like Nanami. Only it's manifested much more as a relationship between men. Where Nanami is a spoiled infatuated princess to use and abuse, Saionji is the wannabe rival. Therefore, his actions are a lot more focused on domination, rather than reinforcing a childlike infatuation. Touga would never pretend to be his childhood friend's prince - primarily due to gender restrictions, but also targeting the specifics of Saionji's weaknesses.

Well, the simple answer is that they have stuff in common no matter how much they try to deny it. They're both confident, competitive, and passionate about swordsmanship.

allegoriest wrote:

Really, I think they never did un-friend, and Touga just turned EVIL, but Saionji never left him, even if he greatly disapproves.

I agree, and I was always confused about that because Touga seemed like a nice kid. Yeah, he clearly led Saionji around at a young age, but at least he cared about him then. Why did he turn into such a jerk? He obviously still wants to be friends with Saionji as seen at the very end of episode nine when he cynically tells EOTW he was foolish to believe they ever really were. He's also  sounds hurt after Saionji tells him he doesn't believe in true friendship for the umpteenth time in Akio's car. Was Touga just destined to become a bad guy who tortured poor Saionji for fun? 

Riri-kins wrote:

Well, the simple answer is that they have stuff in common no matter how much they try to deny it. They're both confident, competitive, and passionate about swordsmanship.

Agreed.  (But don't forget chauvinism, they have that in common as well. :p  ) When they both pull their heads out of their respective rears they are good for each other.  Saionji sees around Touga's personal blinders and Touga sees around Saionji's.  They both tell each other some harsh truths when the other needs it, and overall, when not fighting, Touga is a safe outlet for Saionji's aggression when they practice together, because Touga can and will ably defend himself, and Saionji provides Touga a challenge, and isn't interested in the things about Touga everyone else has been interested in -his looks and his money.  (He just liked having a friend.)

Saionji didn't care about those things when they were kids, though he may have felt proud to have someone of the upper class as a friend, and over time they weren't what he valued about Touga, they became a part of that unbeatable facade that Touga carried and that he envied.  He came to despise Touga because they were worlds apart.  Every time Touga bests him he reminds Saionji of this, and unlike when they were children, Saionji cannot accept being in a relationship in which he is the weaker, because people get hurt and used that way (Touga's betrayal as children is proof of that).  And every time Touga flaunts his own easy sexuality and confidence, it reminds Saionji how different this older Touga is from the younger, even if some of that difference is defined by his own changing perception (which he eventually comes to realize.)

Saionji doesn't put Touga on a pedestal in terms of morality or perfection, he's too observant to have any illusions about Touga's chastity or good will; he puts him on a pedestal in terms of power.  He's too proud to try and bring Touga down (at least on a conscious level) so he strives to instead bring himself up.  But the manner in which he would have to do this disgusts and cows Saionji... he doesn't want to change who he fundamentally is or risk defeat and scorn...so he doesn't try to tally up his own lists of sexual conquests or perfect his ability to manipulate others, instead he plays out this battle in the dueling arena.  Katana's are more in his comfort zone. 

riri wrote:

I agree, and I was always confused about that because Touga seemed like a nice kid. Yeah, he clearly led Saionji around at a young age, but at least he cared about him then. Why did he turn into such a jerk? He obviously still wants to be friends with Saionji as seen at the very end of episode nine when he cynically tells EOTW he was foolish to believe they ever really were. He's also  sounds hurt after Saionji tells him he doesn't believe in true friendship for the umpteenth time in Akio's car. Was Touga just destined to become a bad guy who tortured poor Saionji for fun? 

Touga himself changed probably because he did not have enough people like Saionji in his life.  People who didn't care if he was handsome or rich or charming, who liked him for other things.  His adoptive parent's treat him like a trophy child, and doubtless adults have been fawning over him in an attempt to get into his family's good graces.  Nanami's love for him was real, but due to their upbringing she mirrored her parents methods of showing affection, and thus Touga mistakenly dismissed it as conditional love just like their's.  Thus, to Touga, love had little meaning other than a means of exchange.  Someone loves you because you provide them something -sex, money, power, a desired role.  As he grew older Touga learned that he could use this to his advantage.  By being the one loved he could get things from other people, set the terms for a relationship and hold the power.  To be needed instead of needing, unlike his foolish friend Saionji.

And he was good at it.  No one ever told him otherwise until Utena showed up, and he truly believed that this was the way that the world worked.  Bits and pieces of this philosophy rubbed off on Saionji as they grew up, who struggles to create an equal give-and-take relationship with Touga in his textbook fudged up way, and his treatment of Anthy showcases a great fear of being the one who loves, and is thus used.  And yet he can't help but seek that unconditional love, and so while he declares his love for Anthy he also vehemently tells himself and anyone who will listen that she loves him back, deep down knowing that this is only because he, as the engaged, has the power in their relationship.  When Anthy subtly implies otherwise and takes away even that security...SMACK... he tries throwing firewood at a flame to put it out, and re-asserts his control.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (12-26-2009 11:20:44 PM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Touga is a safe outlet for Saionji's aggression when they practice together, because Touga can and will ably defend himself, and Saionji provides Touga a challenge, and isn't interested in the things about Touga everyone else has been interested in -his looks and his money.  (He just liked having a friend.)

There's a very good post/mini-essay by you, OiTL, where you analyzed that scene between young Touga and Saionji. You pointed out that when Touga said "Well, you're the only one good enough to practice with after school," what he was really saying was "Well, nobody else will practice with me after school" (I'm heavily paraphrasing here). Little Touga didn't seem like a kid with a lot of friends. Even now, he doesn't really have any friends, when you think about it. The student council aren't exactly friends; Saionji tells him they're not friends, to his face; Nanami thinks he's perfect; his floozies can't command his respect; Utena may be attracted to him, but she dislikes him; and with Akio, it's all about power and manipulation and pretending to be grown-ups. He's the most popular person in school and he has no friends. Not for nothing--he's a royal bastard--but that's a chicken-egg question.

In a weird way the closest thing he has to a friend is Anthy, because there's a certain implicit, nonsexual understanding each has of the other. They have the same nemeses (Saionji and Nanami). They both wear a mask in public. They're both fucking the same guy (do they compare notes?). They're also two of the most sexually experienced members of the cast. Even if oldboy's hypothesis is correct, and the rose bride makes it somehow impossible for the engaged to have sex with her, Anthy's been having sex with Akio for decades, if not centuries or millennia.

Of course, Saionji doesn't have any real friends either.

I agree with you, OiTL, I wasn't trying to imply they were friends, but they did seem to have a connection. Not a connection that could become friendship, but...Think of when Anthy and Touga are plotting to kill the aphids in the rose garden, and when Touga "kidnaps" the rose bride. Or when Touga asks her "which one do you want to win" (I forget which duel). That's very far from friendship, but there is something there that isn't there with, say, Juri or Kozue. Of course, they could both just be obeying Akio...in which case, never mind.

If she despises him, he's smart enough to pick up on it; as someone who's been flattered and adored all his life, he might get off on it in a weird way. The source of his power hates him, and everyone else admires him. That's like something out of Arabian Nights, or one of those fairytales by Hesse.