Keep in mind that Akio's been running this campus for decades. He's probably amused by any social stigma he faces, because not only has he fucked everyone in the joint, he probably fucked their parents, too.

Personally, I find the whole idea of Akio suffering "social stigma" both ridiculous and irrelevant. He is an immortal being with supernatural powers, influences and goals, and Ohtori is his cloistered kingdom where he wields near absolute power. There's never any suggestion that he is in anything less than complete control of the laughably ignorant outsiders who are mere puppets dancing to his string-pulls.

In short, your (secondhand) views about asian culture, right or wrong, don't matter here. Even given that they might be true in a normal situation, they don't apply to Akio. If anything, he probably feels nothing but amusement at the mere humans who'd presume to look down on him when in fact he is far, far above their kind.

Last edited by Aelanie (01-13-2013 09:19:01 PM)

Wow, the (opinionated)labeling of my view on Asian culture (when I am Asian) as being "secondhand" . . .

Zing.

A few thoughts...
First is that Ohtori Academi/Akio/All of that seem (through almost all of the show), quite removed from the outside world, including the folks allowing Akio to nest there. It really exists as it's own little microcosm as much as anything I think, and I'm not convinced that Akio would be impacted (or care much about) the views of anyone outside that bubble. Honestly, I feel fairly strongly he doesn't (usually) care much about the views of anyone inside it either, besides himself.

how will those of equal or higher social status to the Ohtoris in rank view and treat Akio

Your points above this about a man being expected to gain status in order to marry the woman he loves etc seem true, especially in Japan (I'd expand that to other Asian countries, but Japan's the only one I've spent much time in) and, to a much lesser but still significant extent I feel, In the US and other places as well. The problem though, is that Ohtori Academy is, as I said above, largely a world unto itself. Who within it has a social status higher than Akio's or the Ohtoris he married into? I'd have to rewatch things to be sure, there might be like... one person. Or two. But I'm sure it couldn't be more than that. I feel its quite possible that "no one" would also be the answer upon a review of the show.

So while I'm not going to agree with Aelanie in calling these thoughts ridiculous or second hand, I do agree that - in the context of Ohtori as an isolated world where Akio and his (adopted) family pretty much run the show - the point is largely irrelevant (and this is ignoring the fact that Akio is basically controlling perceived reality within the context of the academy as well, through the planetarium/imaginarium/whatever contraption he's got up there). All the further articles simply seem to be showcasing the view that the opinion you're putting out on marriage/name adoption holds in reality. And I have no argument there, I think there would be a very real stigma against someone doing that. In the context of the show though, I don't think the two cases line up. Although it's neat to think about.

if a manly man loves a woman, he is expected to be able to gain qualifications (wealth, status) enough to marry that woman

Just to bring this back to the start, can you state who exactly we're talking about, in terms of who does Akio love enough to marry?

- His relationship with Himemiya is probably the closest female one he has, but I don't think he either loves her or wants to marry her. I have trouble pinning down exactly what the nature of this relationship is, but I don't think it's one of those two, unless we're using "love" more loosely. Then, /maybe/ you can make an argument that he does. But even if you did use it loosely, and he did love her, it wouldn't be in the same sense that would require any social efforts on his part. ... or maybe he does love her and I'm just a bit obtuse.
          - Is he even capable of real love anymore, status/post being torn up by all the world when he was a real prince/Dios/truly loved everyone in the world and wanted to protect them all?

- His relationship with Kanae seems very hollow, and looks to have been just struck up for mutual benefits to him and the Ohtoris. Marriage there, of course, if not love. He's fulfilling his obligations to their family though by running the Academy and marrying Kanai. The Ohtoris themselves might look down on him a bit, but he probably looks down on them too. I'm sure he's proud of himself for manipulating them nicely into giving him everything he wanted.

... Does Akio do many other "feminine" things other than marrying into a family and adopting their name? Besides staying locked up in his ivory tower like Rapunzel (and having some dashing long hair of his own)? It would be really amusing to see a well done essay about him trying to change from a prince to a princess and while the other main character (Utena) is trying to become a prince. Good compare/contrast there, if you could work it... which you probably couldn't. But still.

Last edited by Valeli (01-14-2013 10:29:07 AM)

Hmm. I need to rewatch this show.

Good points, and I don't disagree. I sort of have a reply, but it would derail this too much and get into what I think the differences are between the outside/inside worlds of the show. And I haven't seen this recently enough to directly point to the examples I'd want to anyways... Assuming you're right and that the outside is just an extension of the inside world that gets filmed less frequently, but to which powers and such can be extended, then I think you're right. And Akio would run into people of high social standing, and might have some awkward moments. And in that case, it's definitely worth looking at why he choose to do what he did (especially since, in that case, the "power" granted by being placed in charge of one academy drops off immensely).

Personally, I see the outside world being much more of an abstraction - it's a fairy tale that exists, but doesn't really. Sort of in the Platonic sense where you have ideas existing as such, and the inside of the world is the more tangible reality despite the illusions being constantly cast about. Outside of the academy you have goodness existing as such in Dios, etc, but inside it goodness is a lot more compromised. Even in Utena, who's always trying her best to become a perfect prince. (Most) of the rides with Akio I'd argue are largely symbolic as well, representing movements in a character's personal relationship between x and y. Some campus excursions are a lot less aimless though, So I'd have a tougher time defending those. I feel I could, but yeah, I haven't seen the show recently enough to make a great case atm, and I don't want to derail your thread, so I'll shut up about that for now.

I think that, under your assumption the outside/inside worlds flow together, your conclusion that he enjoys baiting people can hold up.

Valeli makes some interesting points above, but to my mind the question is irrelevant for a different reason than he and Aelanie suggest.  It's not that Akio has near-absolute power in his bubble; it's just that Akio does not show himself capable of feeling stigma or shame.  Shutin, from your translation of the original article:

Japanese are becoming more liberal in viewing male marriage-adoption, but a lot of Jap man still feel conflicted, first it’s because they care about “male pride” and “how the outside world sees me”, secondly, husband believe they have to  pay back financial well-being  gained from wife’s family, which makes men feel “huge stress”.)

This may well be true for most Japanese men.  But there is no evidence that Akio feels emasculated by this arrangement, nor that he gives two shits about how the outside world sees him, nor that he feels indebted to the Ohtori family.

Once a man get adopted by another family, his own name will have to be taken out from his family record book, and he will be branded with wife last name and put in wife’s family record book, even after dying, he can only be buried in wife’s family grave, and not be ‘returned” to his own original family grave.  In Japan where family record and relevant grave stuff is Asian traditional, it is not a easy thing to accept this.

Again, this may well be true for most Japanese men.  But Akio has no family apart from his sister, who he believes he controls -- it's even possible that he never had a family, since he's a semi-supernatural archetype -- and there's no evidence that he is pained by not being able to carry on the Himemiya family name.  Heck, we don't even know for sure that his name was Himemiya.  He wears the Ohtori name like a second skin, because it represents power, and Akio is shameless in gaining and flaunting symbols of power.  In a very real sense, the Ohtoris didn't adopt Akio; Akio adopted the Ohtoris.

There is danger in assuming that a stereotype about a group, even a well-founded stereotype, applies to every individual in that group.  This seems to be a case where Akio is exempt from whatever negative stereotypes usually attach to a man taking his wife's family name. 

The best evidence of this is precisely the Mrs. Ohtori scene.  A J-drama that played this straight, I think, would have Akio respond to Mrs. Ohtori's threat of canceling the engagement by having him back down and snivel -- "I won't forget what your family has done for me," "I'll make you proud," or something like this, which would indeed emasculate and shame him and show that he's in debt.  Instead, that scene plays out differently -- in a way that turns out to emphasize Akio's masculinity and lack of shame, and to justify his belief that he's not in anyone's debt.  Ikuni is aware of the stigma that can attach to taking on one's wife's family name, and he is using this scene to subvert it in order to develop Akio's character.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

it interest me to see why he choose to become an "adopted-son", instead of power-forcing the Ohtoris into marrying Kanae to him as Himemiya Kanae, and then giving the Academy to him rename Himemiya Academy.  It would be so easy with his power, and there will be no need to face social stigma from anyone, inside or outside the academy.

I think it's because Akio doesn't need to rename Ohtori Academy to be the one with power.  Renaming the academy doesn't benefit him.  The only reason to rename the academy would be if Akio in fact did feel denigrated or humiliated to take on the Ohtori name -- and as I said, it's pretty clear that he doesn't feel this way, and he doesn't care about any stigma that might come in from outside.  Otherwise, he could always just have Mr. Ohtori killed and become the actual chairman, not just the acting chairman, and do what he likes.  But then he would have to marry Kanae and deal with boring Ohtori family matters and assume a position of real responsibility, which is the last thing he wants.  I think Akio is pleased as Punch to be an acting chairman and heir apparent, wielding power without responsibility.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Mrs. Ohtori's dialogue shows that she feels superior to him, and sees him as being in debt/inferior; it is the same with Kanae, thus why the blatantly shrewd use of the male-pride crushing mother-card on a future hubby.

I agree in part, but first we have to unpack this:

Akio's solution to this is to offer sexual service down on one knee (Dare I say it in a male whorish manner?): his "masculinity and lack of shame" displayed is part of a calculated "service" to pleasure the clearly enjoying/predatory Mrs. Ohtori.  One can say he is "dominating" Mrs. Ohtori with "pleasure", but he is in the position of offering pleasure, and what pleasure he takes in the (down on knee) act can only be mental, not physical (though we can only guess which kind of sex act comes off screen . ..  male on female oral?).

There is nothing inherently demeaning about performing oral sex -- down on one knee or in any other position.  Context can make it demeaning, but context can also make it empowering: to receive oral sex is to surrender power to another person.  No one is more aware of power dynamics in sex than Akio, unless it's Anthy.

Mrs. Ohtori is right about one thing.  Because Akio enjoys his arrangement as Ohtori heir, Mrs. Ohtori does indeed wield power over Akio; she's probably Akio's only social superior in the series.  She is entirely happy to use that power to extract sex.  In many shows, this would make Akio the bottom dog.  But remember who Akio is.  Manipulating people with sex is his favorite thing in the world.  He needs Mrs. Ohtori, and in this scene we see that he's arranged things so that Mrs. Ohtori also needs him.  Akio's power thus comes with only one string attached: once in a while he has to manipulate someone with sex.  As far as Akio's concerned, that's a win-win.  What more could he want?  And who is really in charge?

So my bottom line is that I actually think you're onto something when you say:

It seems to me that Double A both enjoy "baiting" humans by putting themselves into situations where humans might shame/bully/turn-against them, and they then retaliate against those baited humans, and victimize the fools accordingly.

While I don't see much evidence that Akio is getting shamed by the whole society, he certainly is getting bullied by Mrs. Ohtori, and he certainly has turned it around on her in a way that secures his place of power.  So I think I agree with you about Akio's motivations for dealing with Mrs. Ohtori the way he does: because he enjoys it and it gets him what he wants.  So I think the only place where we disagree is in why Akio agreed to the adoption business in the first place -- and even here, we might just be framing the same idea differently.  If I understand you correctly, you think that's part of the same game he's playing with Mrs. Ohtori, another way to bait people into looking down on him.  I don't see anyone besides Mrs. Ohtori looking down on Akio in the show, so I don't frame it that way; instead, I say he accepted the adoption because it gives him a lot of real power without giving him high social status, which he'd prefer to avoid because it comes with responsibility.  But in some respects that's the same idea.  Either way, Akio doesn't have to be at the top of the social totem pole.  He just has to be the scariest face on it.  And that, as I said above, is how Ikuni uses Mrs. Ohtori to show how Akio subverts cliches about adoption of a male heir.

Last edited by satyreyes (01-14-2013 05:06:46 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

So I think the only place where we disagree is in why Akio agreed to the adoption business in the first place -- and even here, we might just be framing the same idea differently.  If I understand you correctly, you think that's part of the same game he's playing with Mrs. Ohtori, another way to bait people into looking down on him.  I don't see anyone besides Mrs. Ohtori looking down on Akio in the show, so I don't frame it that way

Yes, we do agree somewhat, except for the below details.

But then he would have to marry Kanae and deal with boring Ohtori family matters and assume a position of real responsibility

Assuming Akio is powerful and/or self-assured enough that he can care nothing about social stigma from people surrounding him, why would he have to fear “boring Ohtori family matters”, which to him would mean the familiar territory of mind-fuckery orgies anyway?  And with his canon power alone, the weight coming with “a position of real responsibility” is something he can easily laid on other people/pawns, while he himself hog and shine under the glory of the position.  I don’t see the above as valid enough a reason for him to play social underdog.

Akio's power thus comes with only one string attached: once in a while he has to manipulate someone with sex.  As far as Akio's concerned, that's a win-win.  What more could he want?  And who is really in charge?

The thing that's note-worthy is that being seen as “underdog at first glance” is not a prerequsitie to manipulate people via sex: the adopted-husband thing rules out social climbers looking to marry into rich good name clans from easily wanting him.  Akio presenting himself as a top dog (aka wealthy single independently rich man) could give him even more ways to manipulate people with sex; and the scope of people he could seduce as a society top dog would surely be broader than that of a social bottom dog.   Why narrow the scope of potential victims to only bored rich and childish students?  Why not attract everyone by presenting himself as a young heir to huge money can marry Kanae?  The Ohtoris will have to respect (while also lust/greed after) him, and he still can easily control the school either directly himself or through the Ohtori clan.

satyreyes wrote:

I don't see anyone besides Mrs. Ohtori looking down on Akio in the show,

I see Kanae looking down on Akio in the show (see the dialogue I've quoted in my first post).  That kinda behavior is considered pussy-whipping in Japan and Asian (as it would in the west).  Note how Akio is presenting himself as a much old man (25-ish) than her(18), and this is in the Asian cultures where the traditional upper-class young ones - like Kanae - are brought up to respect their elders.  Kanae  flaunting Akio’s attraction/reliance on her family’s wealth, and also using the mother card, means that she, a young lass, sees the older man as a servant-like entity at her highness’ beck and call.  That is seriously looking down.

The only reason we don’t see scenes of more people looking down on Akio on screen is because
a)    Mr. Ohtori is never shown
b)    SKU scenes focuses mostly upon the school kids main cast
But, like I’ve said upthread, it is logical to infer that Akio will have to accompany Kanae and the Ohtoris to outside of Ohtori Academy on various occasions (just like it’s logical to infer the Ohtoris will go in and out of expensive private hospital(s)/clinic(s) for sick Mr. Ohtori). Being wealthy, the Ohtoris will no doubt have to attend grand galas and charity balls that will be off campus (the rich retain/advance social status via networking, after all).  How will other Ohtori-rich people, in those high society setting the “Acting Chairman” seems unlikely to be able to dodge entirely, react to him?  Why does Akio seem to want to make them look down on him instead of admiring and greed-at-first-sight over him?

Either way, Akio doesn't have to be at the top of the social totem pole.  He just has to be the scariest face on it.

But being at a lower level of the pole narrows the victim demographic significantly.

Thus how the “Akio got a masochistic taste for baiting people into looking down on/bullying him just like Anthy” theory came to me, cause there are other better ways other for him to screw with (potentially a lot, lot more) people if he places himself at the top of the social totem pole like he totally could with his powers.  This is also why I believe Akio is capable of feeling (at least a little) of the prick of people's disdain/bullying of him, but that he somewhat enjoys it at a perverse level (much like Anthy), but also feel (some) anger as he then set to destroy those who poke him (apple-fed Kanae), thus why he purposely disguise himself as social underdog.

P.S. agree with Atropos's last post.