So I see that you didn't read the rules. If you had, you would have seen:

10. Hate Speech – We will ban people for hate speech (nigger, faggot, etc.), but that is up to our discretion and the context of the post. If it is clearly meant to be a joke, we will take the action we believe to be appropriate. If it is clearly not a joke, it is a bannable offense. Keep in mind that your interpretation may not line up with ours, and feel free to ask us about any decisions we make.

Go back to tumblr. Or did they kick you out for being too much of an asshole even for them? Either way, good riddance.

Seriously, anyone whose biggest contribution to the forum in ten posts is that they can't even pretend to common decency doesn't deserve a place here.

Yeah, saw that in the tag and came over here to give a heads up This person doesn't seem to get that what caused the ban was the way they were talking and not what they were talking about.  Looks like the one thing I hate most about tumblr, trying to sic followers on people when someone doesn`t agree with you.

Well...he is depicted somewhat sympathetically. Not enough to save him from being the antagonist of the show, but he's at least shown to be as much of a victim as Anthy is.

Not to be a jerk, but let's move the tumblr discussion to the drama thread where it belongs. I'd rather see people talking about racism in this thread. Thanks for the link, though, it was hilarious.

MikoGalatea wrote:

One thing that's come out of this mess that I appreciate, though, is that Akio is being discussed with regards to this topic as well. I've seen a couple of posts on Tumblr that touched on SKU's racial themes, but they focused pretty much exclusively on Anthy (not that it isn't important to talk about!) while Akio just gets a passing mention as "oh yeah, he has dark skin too". At worst, it feels a bit like some users on there mentally whitewash him just because he's evil and powerful and what-have-you.

Anthy's female and gets constantly "victimized" (we all know it's usually on purpose as one of her plots) by other students. She lends herself to a victim role so it's easier to talk about her. Akio, on the other hand, is way more uncomfortable to discuss. He's got a lot of opposing traits and actions that don't make him slot into a victim role easily in discussion (although Atropos is right, he is one) so the question of his darker skin color, which is unfortunately conflated with victimization, becomes a pretty rocky one to navigate. It sucks that in many people's minds, race = victim status, when I think a lot of people would really object to being thought of as a victim because of the color of their skin.

I've actually got a lot more to say about your post, but I'm busy baking a cake for my mom's birthday so I'll have to continue later if y'all don't mind

Edit: There's a thread for the drama here.

Last edited by Yasha (08-08-2013 02:37:08 PM)

Bleah, I got beaten to the stuff about Anthy.

MikoGalatea wrote:

Finally, I just want to say that while I know Be-PaPas didn't intend any particular deeper meaning to Anthy's and Akio's skin colour, that doesn't mean that their choices can't still carry certain implications for some people. Cultural background can influence the way someone sees a piece of media just as much as personality and/or upbringing, and I think that's at least worth taking into consideration.

I think that's what I've been trying to get at all along. I absolutely don't believe that Anthy and Akio's skin color was chosen with the intent of exploring racism. We can, however, view it through the different lenses of cultural and personally experienced racism because SKU is just that kind of show. There's a lot of opportunity to talk about it but that wasn't what was on Saito's mind.

BlackBeforeRed wrote:

I know Ikuhara's word isn't usually worth shit, but he has said in the past he wanted to portray the feeling of being a minority. So I do think it was a little more than just an aesthetic choice. I think an argument could be made that the character difference between Akio and Anthy is a statement on how misogyny can at times have a greater impact on PoC. And seeing as how Ikuni made the statement about minority in reference to his portrayal of U&A being a couple, it makes me think of the big three for privilege and discrimination, the White Heterosexual Male (In the context of Japan that would be the Asian Heterosexual Male) Anthy being none of those things makes her the lowest on the totem pole. It's pretty symbolic for her role as the Rose Bride.

Ha, I don't remember him saying that, but then I don't pay much attention to him.

You're right, it does put Anthy symbolically lowest spot as compared to the big three. Akio, on the other hand, gets at least one out of the three-- I only say "at least" because I'm not sure whether he deserves the 'Hetero' tag. I think he probably fakes it for the public. That puts him in a higher spot on that totem pole than Anthy, but it doesn't explain his position as the most obvious power behind the duels and in the school.

Then again, he does have to kiss a little ass (or other things) to stay in that Chairman spot. There are a few ways that you can interpret his little liaison with Mrs. Ohtori, and one of the ones that accounts for his race puts him, on the surface, in a servile position. He's subverting that by making himself irresistible to have there and ultimately being the one in control.

You know, I really like your interpretation. That's a really interesting way to see it. From that perspective we get a different focus on Akio's behavior, and another potential explanation for his motivations in letting Anthy languish, pierced by the swords, while he goes out and has fun. You could definitely postulate that he's more than willing to chameleon himself in whatever way will best serve him, giving up bits of himself along the way.

That's.... almost too poetic to waste on Akio

Ya'll, it's important here that Japan is a homogeneous society.  While they don't have the same issues of white privilege or the same history of black slavery and segregation, they do have their own racial issues.

What I'm saying is, no, all the nuances of a Japanese show with a primarily Japanese cast with 2 Indian characters are not precisely the same nuances as if it were an American show with an all white cast with 2 black characters.

And, yeah, it can be totally ethnocentric and, honestly, given the demographics of this forum as I know them, white-privilege-y of many of us to assume too deeply that our experiences are universal.  But, as predominantly Westerners, it's totally normal for us to draw comparisons to Western history and culture.  That's the stuff we know, and it's natural when we need to learn something new that we build on what we know.  We say: it's similar to this, but different from that, it reminds me of this other thing.

So it's different, but, then again, it's not completely different.  There are gonna be some parallels.  Even if it's just in-group/out-group behavior.  And I do think it's more than "purely" superficial that Anthy & Akio are the only dark-skinned, possibly non-native characters.  Even if all the creators thought the reasons were superficial they can still have racial tones (even aside from what we as viewers bring to it), because the creators' culture has problems with racism, too, and also because racism isn't just saying, "I hate [racial epithet]s".

Superficially choosing to make a character a different race to make them "exotic and mysterious", for example, is kind of racist.  It's not like I'm an expert on this, but even I've picked up that Japan has issues with xenophobia and marginalization of immigrants and ethnic minorities.  And they have tensions with China and Korea, for example, that stem in part from their historical imperial aggression.  Sound familiar?

This is really complicated and sensitive stuff, and Tumblr tends to have a vituperative style in talking about it that is very different from IRG.  So while I think was a bit of culture-clash between Tumblr and IRG here, a lot of the initial posts did come across to me like "nope, not about race", which is kind of dismissive toward a very difficult and serious course of inquiry.

There's a reason I didn't come into this thread, and that reason is I'm a white person in the US.  All I would bring to this discussion is whiteness and Westerness, and I didn't think I had anything particularly insightful to add, since I'm sure my point of view is more than adequately represented.

(That POV, btw, is "There's probably some race stuff here, but I don't know what, where, or why.")

Well, since this thread is so popular maybe I should give you an update. My friend liked the series in the end, and she felt better about Utena's role with Anthy once she watched the whole thing.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

And I do think it's more than "purely" superficial that Anthy & Akio are the only dark-skinned, possibly non-native characters.  Even if all the creators thought the reasons were superficial they can still have racial tones (even aside from what we as viewers bring to it), because the creators' culture has problems with racism, too, and also because racism isn't just saying, "I hate [racial epithet]s".

To explain at least my insistence that it was a superficial choice, I wasn't trying to say that there were no racial issues there, but rather that Chiho Saito's intent wasn't to invoke racial issues, and that's how I took anyone else saying that as well.

That's kinda the flip side to your argument-- just because racial issues are there doesn't mean that those are the issues the creator means us to be considering. That doesn't mean they're invalid or irrelevant, and I seriously doubt anyone was trying to say that.


Editt: Herp. I forgot!

HonorableShadow wrote:

Well, since this thread is so popular maybe I should give you an update. My friend liked the series in the end, and she felt better about Utena's role with Anthy once she watched the whole thing.

This makes me warm and fuzzy.

Last edited by Yasha (08-12-2013 11:27:45 PM)

Amasis wrote:

Now, I don't want to get involved in any ~discourse~. And I certainly don't want to state my probably /pol/-tier headcanon.

[Namely that Utena is set in a world with a Napoléonic victory, and subsequent French cultural hegemony. Japan was then opened and integrated into the the global French empire.

Akio and Anthy are, or rather pose as, descendants of a Tamil prince who assisted the French in expelling British power from India.

The point is that in the earlier days of the French colonization the Japanese aristocrats starting dying their hair to emulate European fashions. However, the dyed hair ended up lookihng nothing like intended. However, instead of abandoning the practice, the nobles took it in stride, and started getting creative. Therefore everyone who makes a claim to status will invariably dye their hair a ridiculous color.

There I said it. Wait, no. Touga, Nanami, and Jury are the Japanized descendants of European colonists. Now I'm done.]'

But if one's going to discuss the issue, shouldn't we be thinking not only of what India means to westerners (ancient, exotic civilization that became our bitch) but also of what it might indicate to Japanese? Something, perhaps, like: an ancient, exotic civilization that we got half of our religion and gods [and syllabary-order] from?

sorry y'all

Wow Amasis, you know your history. I applaud you in your findings!! Yes this story definitely takes place in France. The words on the coffins are in French, and it's a known thing that a good chunk of fairy tales (with princes, especially) have been told by the French. The fencers also use rapiers, and the design and name of Juri (Julie when romanized) kinda give it away as well.

And to answer the question of the OP, no this show is FAR from racist... It's a deep and meaningful tale in which Anthy and Utena learn to accept one another. Also Anthy is not depicted in any malicious way... She is in fact a victim to her brother, who is also Indian lol. Akio is a charismatic Chairman, how would that be racist?

DefineMask wrote:

And to answer the question of the OP, no this show is FAR from racist... It's a deep and meaningful tale in which Anthy and Utena learn to accept one another. Also Anthy is not depicted in any malicious way... She is in fact a victim to her brother, who is also Indian lol. Akio is a charismatic Chairman, how would that be racist?

Well PoC are hypersexualized and depicted as vile (rapists, manipulators, liars, while being sexy somehow and exotic), it's part of the brown stereotype. Anthy being in the need to be saved is also part of the "White Savior" trope. Even if they just used the different race in Anthy and Akio to make them "exotic", it could have a negative impact in the audience and in the lives of PoC.

I'm not really saying the show IS or ISN'T racist, I think it's a more complex question and answer than simply "I like the character therefore is not racist" logic. Personally I don't position myself since my point of view is very western, but if Utena had been made here, I would think racism was definitely a topic the authors intended to deconstruct. If their intention matched the impact, is a very difficult question to answer. But it wasn't, so I lack information about the context.

We also talked about this here, in case anyone wants to read some more.

Last edited by pesimistamente (05-24-2016 04:48:50 PM)

i don't know if i'm digging up old bones with this, but i have to agree with rhyaniwyn's idea:

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Superficially choosing to make a character a different race to make them "exotic and mysterious", for example, is kind of racist.  It's not like I'm an expert on this, but even I've picked up that Japan has issues with xenophobia and marginalization of immigrants and ethnic minorities.

i am not japanese, but i've been living and working in japan for five years and want to share my ideas about what the japanese perspective of anthy and akio's character designs might be based on my impressions and experiences living here. i think there are two ways to theorize about anthy and akio's character designs. we can assume that:

1) chiho saito (i am assuming she was chiefly responsible for their design), with the intention of making akio and anthy "look non-japanese (ie, a race other than japanese)," gave them darker skin than the other characters and bindis (which we can assume was her impression of how certain groups of non-japanese people "look")

or

2) chiho saito gave them darker skin than the other characters and bindis, without the intention of making them "appear non-japanese"

if we assume theory 1, i very much agree with rhyaniwyn's above statement that superficially choosing to make a character a different race (or, to the original designer, what "appears" to be a different race) to make them "exotic and mysterious" is kind of racist in that it is definitely "othering." there is a lot of othering of non-japanese people in japan, and taking into consideration that it is based on the idea of japanese people being the "norm" or "standard," it can definitely be construed as racist and/or xenophobic within the context of japanese culture/society (as numbers of people of all different races are being legally allowed to live and work in japan).

even if we assume theory 2, with regards to giving only two characters darker skin than the other characters, it would be difficult to assume it was done without the intention of making them "appear non-japanese," as even though there is skin color variation among japanese people and if we assume the characters of sku to reflect that, there is no additional skin color variation among the other characters (excluding mamiya, who also wears a bindi and in my interpretation is actually anthy, and touga, who i've noticed seems to have a slightly different skin tone than the other characters). also, bindis are not commonly worn by japanese people in japan, as a fashion accessory or with religious meaning. so i don't think it's very plausible that akio and anthy were designed to be japanese characters who have dark skin and wear bindis as fashion accessories, though this could still be true.

and if we assume theory 1, i must comment that it is also very othering in that akio, anthy, and mamiya all wear bindis (and mamiya and akio, erroneously, as they are meant to be worn by women), which are connected to hinduism and jainism, yet those characters are never shown to be practicing either of those faiths. in addition to this, akio and anthy never speak any other language than japanese, and never engage in any non-japanese cultural practices nor are shown to have cultural backgrounds and ways of thinking that differ from those of the other characters (to my knowledge). perhaps they do and it is just not touched upon in the series, but the fact that it is still never shown reinforces the idea that chiho saito intended to simply make them "look non-japanese" in order to merely make them seem "exotic and mysterious," thereby stripping them of the non-japanese cultural and religious identities that would come with being of a different race and cultural background, and in effect not only "othering" but also, to an extent, disempowering and invalidating the cultural background of non-japanese people living in japan who have dark skin and wear bindis.

i am not trying to villainize chiho saito, and i love sku, but i think it is important to be aware of prejudices and consider the experiences of all different kinds of people. what i would really like to know is a hindu/jain person who is living in japan's perspective about sku and anthy and akio. but all that being said, i think it is great that there is ethnic diversity in sku (especially in the roles of the main characters), however much the cultural identities of the characters may be under-developed.

Last edited by ordinary.day (08-12-2016 07:17:52 AM)