WHAT? Land of the Dead?! I thought it was simply a retelling of the original story (albeit quite a bit darker and with more sexuality). I was not aware of the fact that it was truly occurring anywhere else than Ohtori Academy. Then theres the rule that at Ohtori Academy, no one simply JUST dies. So, IMHO I doubt whether Touga truly died or if he simply.....vanished.

I didn't really know what to think of dead!Touga. I was too busy thinking how hot he looked in that black uniform

I always saw it as a kind of purgatory between series-Ohtori and the so-called outside world -- Akio's last-ditch attempt to control the rapidly disintegrating illusionary castle, accounting for a) his loss of power b) Anthy's gain and of and c) General Crack. It's...I don't know, an interstitial space between realities, by necessity more fluid and peculiar than anything it exists between.

Or it's just that's it's half-past-midnight and I've worked nine and a half hours and need sleep. You know.

This isn't my theory, and I'm not sure if I completely agree with it, but I've heard it speculated that the movie is Anthy's attempt at controlling Ohtori to gain revolution after Akio's initial failure.  Something along the lines of after Anthy left Akio's Ohtori, she created her own - reduced to only essential parts, such as the fencing club having a stage, but no room to be played in.  It was reduced to this skeletal form because Anthy's goal was more focused than Akio's... she didn't want to play the rest of the school as pawns, only to draw Utena into the fold.  She only needed the parts of Ohtori that were necessary to get Utena into her grasp.

Again, this is not my theory, but one that I've read elsewhere and seems to make some valid points.  I'm just not sure if I am on the same page 100% as to that being the plane of existence (such as there is) for Adolescence Apocalypse.

Personally, I find it to be more of an alternate telling of the series, reduced to its core elements and taking place more in the realm of metaphor and the abstract than any actual tangible world.

Last edited by Imaginary Bad Bug (07-31-2007 07:15:34 PM)

At least three people (Utena, Anthy & Shiori) are so obsessed by the dead that they have become possessed by the dead. I am not sure if that also applies to Juri and Miki. Utena and Anthy free themselves and re-join the outside world of the living whence they first came and somehow Shiori fails for no obvious reason. Perhaps Shiori and Kozue fail because they think that happiness and freedom are zero-sum games.

(HP7 got me to thinking along these lines.)

I think it's all rather odd. Utena, Shiori, and Anthy can definately see Touga, while Miki definately can not. But what about Juri? We never see her with Touga, but when Shiori speaks of him, Juri seems to know him. She also mentions his name during her duel with Utena... I wonder, can Juri see Touga? I always assumed so, because he died trying to save her [in reference to the "Juri in the boat?" thread, yes, I am almost positive that it is Juri.]. I think that this act enables her to see him. I'd like to put it into a neat little package, saying that seeing Touga is a sign of why Shiori was not able to escape. Seeing the dead is a good indication of remaining in your coffin, no? But, obviously, Utena and Anthy escaped despite him... perhaps because Utena knows he is dead, and makes peace with that? Because Anthy has always known, and she was using her relationship with him as means for getting closer to Utena? Anthy always seems to be an exception to most rules, because she is one of the master players [the master in the movie, IMO, because Akio was a dead pansy.], and certain things do not apply to her, because she is the one pulling the strings [I understand all the things wrong with that statement, but run with me for a moment, I don't feel like typing up lots of explanations.].

I think it was Juri in the movie despite it being her sister in the series because that was the cause of Shiori's bitter resentment of Juri in the movie - she loved Touga and he died saving Juri.

But it's been a long time for me too.

The drowning and water theme is pretty strong in the movie... I'm not sure I ever asked myself who was in the boat. The whole rescue affair is mirrored in the manga, with Utena falling into a raging stream instead. I obviously need a rewatch (again). I saw Ohtori as a illusion, the kind of delerium that someone whose lungs are filling with water would have. A near death experience where devoid of oxygen your mind  is stripped back to raw consiousness - where the lies you tell yourself to make you forget fall away. That final drawn-out moment when you can choose to be rescued or to be drowned.

So what about Touga? Does he exist there because he drowned himself, or because Utena forgets that he's dead?

Razara wrote:

Miki supposedly killed his sister

Though we see a Kozue car (one of the black masses) in the parking garage when Juri and Miki are talking.  The rubber duck is there too, actually...  I don't think Kozue was killed per se, but she became just another obstacle to those who wish to move on to the adult world after Miki rejected her advances, since she could not seem to move past seeking Miki's attention.  (All of this is of course conjecture based on series Kozue and her 8 second appearance in the movie. )

Hmm.. and now I see that I have veered off topic.

Whoo. Here is my popping my posting virginity. Actually, this is my second account here, but after disappearing into the oblivion I thought it best to reincarnate myself into new form. ANYWAY.

The sad thing about arguing Utena is that even the creator agrees that he adds certain elements just to add to the surrealism of the show. I prefer to take my Utena like I take my Lynch - let the logic slide and enjoy the subconscious dreamlike bizarreness. Now that in any way I'm detracting from the discussion of symbols in Utena because Akio knows there are a good many of them. Just that its hard to get a coherent overall interpretation. Which I'm sure is deliberate.

I had never actually seen the movie version of Ohtori as a realm of death, but it is very interesting now that you mention it. I know the two versions are separate realities, but both of them have to do with the transition of fantasy to reality, youth to maturity, and dreams to awakening. Death to life is more directly covered in the series with the coffin motif, but no characters (besides Ruka) actually die throughout its course. A good number of people are dead in the movie. Perhaps if one dies within the fantasy world of Ohtori, they are bound to stay there. I always imagined at the end that Shiori was going to transform into a version of Touga, as indicated by her death and foreshadowed by the fact she alone could see Touga.

However, Anthy herself was dead, and eventually came to the "outside world". Here's a thought - maybe they're all dead. It's a version of the afterlife. Oooooo! But whatever it is, it is clear that the lines between life and death are somewhat blurred. After all, how can they all see Anthy? Because she's a witch? What is the primary difference between Anthy and Touga, or Akio for that matter?

Some interesting points I noticed...

1) Ohtori, although perhaps a realm of death, is portrayed as a lush and fertile (albeit weirdly designed) place. The outside world (or perhaps the path to the outside world, it was never made completely clear) appears to a land long destroyed and ravaged, with no life in sight. Pretty ironic. Maybe that is how it is after the witch ravaged it?

2) In the series, the Akio car is associated with...well, sex....but also with the transitions made in the lives of the various characters. The cars have a much more prevalent role in the movie. Cars are also traditionally associated with maturity and rites of passage. Both make a lot of sense in the context. And, the sex. Anthy and Utena were pretty much doing it on the car, yeah.

3) Akio dresses like Elton John. Not sure what that represents.

Quiet Israfel wrote:

Also, anyone else wondering why, if Touga died so young, is he an adolescent when we see him for the majority of the movie? Could it be a reflection of the other characters’ imposing how they would see him, if he lived to be older?

That's a good question!

Rhyaniwyn wrote:

[Touga] at least, can let Utena go when she is ready.  Whether his prior  actions are meant to goad her into being ready, hinder her progress, or fulfill his own agenda is debatable.

Debatable indeed but towards the end Touga wants to be released. In the manga he says he cannot feel Utena when they touch. In the long run that can't be much fun for either of them. Akio does not want to release Anthy. But since they are both dead perhaps they are simply reflecting the desires of their mistresses. Anthy is described as having such power to love that she can change physical reality and create princes out of people like Akio, Touga, and Utena, but she is apparently not powerful enough to change the fundamental character of Akio.

Or perhaps it comes down to how they were corrupted. Touga had a dreadful childhood and sought power to become a grownup at all costs. Akio was corrupted by being so spoiled that he cannot even understand good and evil or know what being a grownup even is.

Come to think of it perhaps the power-hungry Touga is Shiori's Touga; and the wiser Touga is Utena's.

The movie would be better if it did what the movie manga did and got rid of Shiori, Kozue, Nanami, and that stupid Keroppan. Still, to be fair, perhaps Shiori and Kozue are meant to be vampires; Shiori vampirizing the dead and Kozue the living. It doesn't work for me but that may have been Ikuhara's goal if he had a better reason than fanservice.

edited to add further thoughts:
In the first manga Touga announces to Utena that he wants to double-cross World's End. He is rather easily out-maneouvered. He does not make such a blatant announcement in the anime but his behavior indicates that he has pegged Akio as a double-crosser and is trying to imitate him in that as in so many other things. Oddly, in all versions he come closer than the other duelists to almost breaking through and understanding, or almost understanding, what it is that Utena finally did or has to do. Perhaps he understands better than many others, including Utena at times, the difference between running away and running to something.

It is also interesting that his sister Nanami shares one significant advantage with him. They are both a little better at seeing through propaganda than many other characters. Their cynicism and power-hunger lets them both see the strings being pulled and the string-puller, although they don't quite figure out how to cut the strings. They both figure out that the game is phony but don't quite make the final step in the anime of realizing how to escape the game.

In the movie perhaps Touga makes a more decisive breakthrough in deciding to not cling to life as a vampire or zombie but to let the dead and the living go their separate ways.

Last edited by brian (08-10-2007 09:58:06 PM)