Gumi, this is brilliant stuff.  Thank you for your time, expertise, and obsession

We can probably say that this work is very enthusiastic when regarding the relation between “reality” and “story”.

I think that would be safe. 

Here what staff is pursuing is not to make “expression” of something through a story, but to play with the expression itself. In episode 22, “pointing finger mark” which appeared on a screen and pointed at a lipstick stain on a coffee cup or cats outside the window, was invisible. It was to show something, that had no meaning (even if, like Ikuhara-san himself has said on the next page, it had in fact a meaning from storytelling point of view) like it was something very meaningful. Or to emphasize audience’s incapability to understand. In other words, it is interesting because from the storytelling point of view it has no meaning; because the “expression” exists apart from the story - it was to show this sort of thing. It was this kind of a acrobatic (?) playing.

I like the idea that some of the "expression" in SKU is not intended to advance the story, but is there mostly for its own sake.  I like this idea because the fear that it might be true is what leads to analysis.  But I don't think the author of this introductory material is giving Be-Papas enough credit.  Utena has held up to analysis pretty well, and its expression seems to be pretty tight in terms of making sense in the narrative -- at least, if you allow for the symbolic bleeding, the "enthusiasm" of the previous quote.

Saitou – No, no, when it’s the anime that is speeding up I start thinking something like “I’m not gonna lose!” and I gain more motivation for making my manga. I think something like “If anime is going that way, then I’m going this way”.

This quote almost makes me like Chiho Saito.  Not quite, but almost. 

I don't know anything about manga; SKU is the only manga I've read, and I haven't even been able to read the fifth and final volume.  I appreciated that the manga was different from the anime, and some of Ms. Saito's innovations are really interesting, particularly in the first issue.  But everything is over so quickly!  Seen side-by-side with the anime, the manga doesn't seem to have any narrative space at all.  No wonder she had to speed it up.

Saitou – So, that finger is showing the passing of time?
Ikuhara – As expected, you’re smart (laugh).

Sounds patronizing to me.  But like Yasha, I'd heard vague rumors already that Ikuhara and Saito didn't get along so well, so it's possible I'm just seeing what I expected to see.

AM – The problem is, what is she wearing during swimming classes?
Hasegawa – It’d be good if she wore a boys’ swimsuit, but please everyone (=readers) make her wear whatever swimsuit you like.

Why, Mr. Hasegawa, I didn't expect this of you!   I wonder why this question had never occurred to me, given the elegance of Hasegawa's answer.  There is official art, found on the trading cards and elsewhere, that shows Utena at the beach in a black bikini (okay, half in a black bikini), but I'd imagine her in a one-piece for swim class.

AM – So does that mean that in the second episode, Saionji who holds “paleozoic within his body” is an ammonite?
Ikuhara – He is an ammonite.
All – (laugh).
Enokido – It means that he’s bound by old-fashioned ideas.

I'm a bad fan; Enokido wasn't even on my radar until now.  He's possibly the most interesting interviewee.  Looking him up on Wikipedia, I see he also wrote Evangelion -- whose writing was good, but not as good as Utena's -- and Ouran High School Host Club, which convinces me that I need to see that show.  I don't know if he's telling the truth about this duel chorus.  The duel choruses in general seem to be pretty good contenders for "expression" unconnected to story.  Some of them really work; others really don't.  It's almost as though Seazer had already written the music, and Be-Papas just matched existing pieces to the duel they'd just animated, like us when we play SKU Themesongs.  But of course that's impossible.

Enokido – I think I’ve already discussed it somewhere before, but I have a particular interest in human relationships at the time when there is no confrontation in them or maybe better said, peaceful human relationships at the time of childhood when there was no confrontation are most easily understandable through the relationship of brother and sister – and that’s why there are so many of them.

This I believe.  That said, given how simple these relationships are supposed to be, it's kind of funny how he goes and complicates all three of SKU's brother-sister relationships into sexually charged, confrontational enigmas!  It's possible Ikuni is also being honest in invoking the idea of princehood in connection with these relationships, but I couldn't really say; you'd have to ask my little brother if there's anything in that. 

Q – What kind of team is Be-Papas for all of you?
Enokido – “How beautiful congeniality is” – something along those lines.

Does anyone know whether Be-Papas ever did anything other than Utena, and if not, why not?  It feels like there is indeed some nice congeniality in this room, and I wonder why they broke up the dream team of Ikuhara, Hasegawa, Enokido, and possibly Saito.

Yasha wrote:

gumi wrote:

Q – Could it be that Chuchu is a very important character who holds a key to the whole story? (reader from Tokyo)
Ikuhara – Giku! (startled) Now, that’s sharp (laugh).

No real answer here. That could imply that there’s more to analytical weight to Chu-chu than previously thought.

No, I think this is Ikuni being patronizing again.   Mind you, he's always full of shit until proven otherwise, but he seems to be at the highest risk of goofing off when he's asked a simple question.

Yasha wrote:

Enokido wants a girl who puts out.

Be fair.  He might also just like thirteen-year-olds. 

Last edited by satyreyes (09-21-2010 01:11:18 AM)

satyreyes wrote:

Saitou – So, that finger is showing the passing of time?
Ikuhara – As expected, you’re smart (laugh).

Sounds patronizing to me.  But like Yasha, I'd heard vague rumors already that Ikuhara and Saito didn't get along so well, so it's possible I'm just seeing what I expected to see.

You're gonna think bullshit here, but I swear that if I'd ever heard a rumor that there was tension between Ikuhara and Saito, I had forgotten it so well that their tense interaction surprised me. Specifically hers more than his; Ikuhara is a patronizing asshole pretty much whenever he feels like it. But some of the impression I got from the things Saito was saying were not very indicative of a good working relationship.

Their very first lines are not exactly playful-- Ikuhara is driving the car, and, accounting for translation blips like the 'aren't we? = we are' that shows up so often in japanese, what happens is that Saito says he's going too fast, and he basically replies by disagreeing with her. The interviewer tends to note laughter and smiles, too, and neither are noted here. There aren't very many situations where you would say 'hey you're driving too fast for me' without laughter and not mean it. And his reaction is to brush it off.

If you assume the situation isn't a joking one and boil it down to emotional subtext, the conversation goes:

Saito: 'I'm uncomfortable with this situation.'
Ikuhara: 'You're overreacting.'

To me, that's not what happens when people feel equal in a relationship, whether romantic, work, or otherwise.

Now don't jump the gun! I didn't say this is hard fact or some huuuuuuuuuge deal. I said this is based on an assumption, and I may have no right to make that assumption. But all throughout their interview, I get little odd moments like that, where something could be entirely innocent but it just feels wrong.

But I'm getting too into it here-- my brain wants to go over and break down all the subtext of their conversation. I got about three hundred words in on one exchange alone, and I doubt anyone wants to hear it. Not only that, but I'd need at least one other translation so I could triangulate connotation and exact meanings. English is very bad at exact meanings sometimes.

satyreyes wrote:

Yasha wrote:

gumi wrote:

Q – Could it be that Chuchu is a very important character who holds a key to the whole story? (reader from Tokyo)
Ikuhara – Giku! (startled) Now, that’s sharp (laugh).

No real answer here. That could imply that there’s more to analytical weight to Chu-chu than previously thought.

No, I think this is Ikuni being patronizing again.   Mind you, he's always full of shit until proven otherwise, but he seems to be at the highest risk of goofing off when he's asked a simple question.

Yeah, Chu-chu having real analytical weight is the comedy option there, but I don't think Ikuhara's full of shit either, exactly. I think that Chu-chu plays a role for Anthy and (some of ) his actions are meant to give insight into her, which kinda means he's a key to the story. Exaggeration of Chu-chu's importance strikes me as typical Ikuhara bullshit to the core.

satyreyes wrote:

Yasha wrote:

Enokido wants a girl who puts out.

Be fair.  He might also just like thirteen-year-olds. 

But Akio is Ikuhara's id! Does this mean Touga is Enokido's id?

(actually, I did get the vibe that Enokido likes Touga quite a bit)

Dallbun wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

Q – What kind of team is Be-Papas for all of you?
Enokido – “How beautiful congeniality is” – something along those lines.

Does anyone know whether Be-Papas ever did anything other than Utena, and if not, why not?  It feels like there is indeed some nice congeniality in this room, and I wonder why they broke up the dream team of Ikuhara, Hasegawa, Enokido, and possibly Saito.

Nope, they didn't do anything else. To all appearances, they came together to make Utena, made Utena, and then disbanded. I've never read anything addressing the circumstances directly, but it doesn't seem like it was some horrible falling-out. They came back after the series to do the movie, after all.

For whatever it's worth, Be-Papas did create the manga S&M no Sekai (The World Exists For Me) after they did Utena, though they apparently never finished it.

Last edited by Imaginary Bad Bug (09-21-2010 11:15:15 AM)

satyreyes wrote:

This quote almost makes me like Chiho Saito.  Not quite, but almost.

I don't know anything about manga; SKU is the only manga I've read, and I haven't even been able to read the fifth and final volume.  I appreciated that the manga was different from the anime, and some of Ms. Saito's innovations are really interesting, particularly in the first issue.  But everything is over so quickly!  Seen side-by-side with the anime, the manga doesn't seem to have any narrative space at all.  No wonder she had to speed it up.

I feel the same way about Saito. But if you haven't read the fifth volume, you're missing out on prince!Anthy and prince!ChuChu. That's got to be the coolest thing Saito's ever done for SKU.

Dallbun wrote:

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

For whatever it's worth, Be-Papas did create the manga S&M no Sekai (The World Exists For Me) after they did Utena, though they apparently never finished it.

Oh, you're right! For some reason I thought that was just Saito and Ikuhara, but it is credited as a Be-Papas work after all, so maybe the others had some part in it, too.

There's also Shounen Ou, which I think at the very least was written by Enokido and drawn by Hasegawa. Apparently the site with the translations is gone, I'm trying to Wayback Machine it.

Edit: w00t, I got it.

This is great, thank you!

Now I just wish some noble soul could translate this for us:



I've always wondered about the location of the different buildings on the map. I mean the cocktower and the yoni-forest are pretty obvious, but where is everything else?

Last edited by Absolute Apocalypse (09-23-2010 05:05:15 PM)

There's at least one dot on that map that isn't on our translated version in any form. Most stuff I can give a good guess at but it looks like this one has slightly different things on it-- possibly more specific ones.

For instance, the top of the tower is marked, so I assume that's the Chairman's Office/Planetarium. There's another dot below that, on the 'shaft' () that I assume is the Student Council Office/Balcony, but it's rather farther up the tower than our other map says (that is not floor 2-6, no sir).

Maybe I should go through and match up the ones I can...

Dallbun, you are a ton of awesome. I think I'm gonna finish off this map, as it's a little more specific than the other. I wish I'd had this when writing fic, I hated just arbitrarily assigning locations to things I couldn't find.



Edit: Hmm... it's more specific in a few spots, less in others. It's still worthwhile, but the maps should probably be used side by side.

Oh hell fuck yes!!  That map says that I guessed right about where the kendo and fencing halls were when I wrote Miracles Never Cease! 

Dallbun wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

Oh hell fuck yes!!  That map says that I guessed right about where the kendo and fencing halls were when I wrote Miracles Never Cease! 

Well, between Gymnasiums 1 and 2, you had a 50-50 chance...

But I still want to know where the Shadow Girls' theater is. 

Giovanna wrote:

Fine. My fault. I'M SORRY. For like...not putting a disclaimer wherever I wrote that?

Your apology is accepted. I think we both pretty clearly remember you writing that part of the essay while chatting with me-- I remember being all WTFWTF when you said it happened, and checking it even then.

Anyway, can't wait for any new material. And satyr, didn't you find out in the other thread that the SPG's theatre was on top of the gym? Something to do with wall patterns?

I was joking about the impossible part.  My best understanding, I think from Gio, is that that's exactly what they did.  Is that wrong?

Thank you for the education, Angel!  That helps explain why the third season's songs have shifted in complexity from the first season's.

I used to have decent basic Japanese, but I lived and practiced with a Seazer translator.
Now I only have terror left. : (

This should be a sig.