I'm horrible at self-definition, so I had to put a lot of thought into this before I could come up with an answer.

In a way, I can relate to Nanami's first duel. I can't relate to her adoration of Touga at all, but it's the mention of the kitten that I can relate to. (I never killed a kitten, and I certainly hope that you didn't think that.) If you've read my interpretation of Nanami's first duel episode, then you know that I think that she regrets what she did.

Nanami's duel episode is the only duel that has ever made me cry, and I still cry when I watch it every now and then. I don't usually get too worked up over the duel itself, but the clipshow/duel in episode 13 is what has this effect on me. The way I see it, when she says that it's Utena's fault that her brother got hurt, it reflects her own feelings of how it was her fault the kitten got hurt. She says it was the kitten's own fault that it got hurt, but really, she's just blaming herself. When I watch that duel, I can't help but think of how sad that is.

She's the only character I can think of that strongly deals with regret, even though it was something that wasn't really her fault. I can relate to this, because I have a bad tendency of regretting everything I say or do.

There aren't. That's a partial list of the ones I ran across a couple of years ago, fan names for the duels. Apparently in the long ago of at least two years ago and probably more, the fandom put together names for the duels and some writers adhered to them. That's the list I've been unable to find in total.

Yeah, I had written an essay about that duel names and what they stem from, and I titled Mikage's 'Rememberance'. It was the most fitting title I could think of. I'm not very good with snazzy titles.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Although, Utena wearing a pink rose confused me, especially since she got a white rose right off the bat on her first duel, when she wasn't engaged to Anthy. Perhaps because her duel that time was more about herself and not Anthy, or simply because she was wearing girl's clothing instead of her usual boy's clothing?

This is some of the only SKU symbolism that actually involves Utena herself that caught my attention. White is symbolic of nobility, dignity, and essentially, 'the prince'. This is why Utena has the white rose. She is the only duelist [save for Nanami, and in my opinion, most of the Black Rose duelists] who doesn't duel for revolution. She's fighting for Anthy, and symbolically, princesses and/or people who generally can't fight for themselves. Unlike Nanami and the BR duelists, who aren't fighting for revolution, but still only fighting for themselves. However, when Utena challenges Touga, she wears the pink rose. CONFUSION MUCH? Pink is a mix between white[innocence, nobility] and red[passion, dignity]. While it would seem that she is fighting to take Anthy back and make her a normal girl, she's really fighting for herself.


Wakaba:  I don't know what it was,
Wakaba:  but if something was taken from you, then take it back!
[yadda yadda]
Utena:  Now I'm going to take back my normal self.
[yadda yadda, shadow girls, staircase crazy swordness]
Utena:  I may not know anything about Himemiya,
Utena:  but right now I want to get back what is normal for me!
[yadda yadda, duely duel]
Utena:  Give me back... what's normal for me.

It isn't to say Utena is wrong in her actions. But she isn't fighting to protect anyone now. She isn't acting out of nobility. In the eyes of a prince, she is acting selfishly, just like all the others. Her rose can not be the pure white, because she isn't fighting out of pure selflessness.

dollface wrote:

Yasha wrote:

dollface wrote:

Keiko's duel was 'Dependence', for the record.

Actually, there is no accepted set of duel names for the BRS. This question has come up before, and I could not find the fanfic writers' version of the duel names, but I do have an artbook with what appear to be duel names for the BRS. I'm not sure whether you want to consider them canon or not.

The duel names from the artbook are:

Kanae - alieation
Kozue - attache
Shiori - jalousis
Tsuwabuki - impatience
Wakaba - limite
Keiko - dependance

Reposted from this thread.

There were no official names for any duels other than the first arc. But yes, I got the BRS from the artbook. I figure that's about as official as you're going to get. Though I always wondered why Mikage didn't have one. Not that I ever saw anyway. I never saw any names [official or not] for any of the other arcs though. But it would seem that [according to Suyo at least] there are some. I wonder how I could have missed them.

In the first and second script books for the series, it has a little section at the end that has the names of the black rose duels, and says Mikage's is called 'conscience.' When I get to to a scanner I'll copy it for you, its pretty much a list that says that, the episode and who it was against.  (listed the others as the same by the way)

it also has Saionji's third as 'relation' and Miki's second as 'tentation,' BUT NONE OF THE OTHERS
(from the second book by the way)


More on topic, I WISH I could related to Juri's second but cannot.

I can relate to Nanami's first duel too, for the reasons Razara pointed out in her post. I tend to place all the blame on myself too.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

dollface wrote:

<snip>

I agree completely. That was about the same conclusion I was arriving out when I posted that. Utena was fighting for herself that time, not Anthy. She just saw her "self" as someone who was with Anthy to protect her. It really ties in well with the after Anthy suicide scene when they were confessing things to each other, and Utena said she only protected her for her ego.

And because Utena was fighting for herself, Dios didn't intervene either. I think the reason why Utena had to fight Touga again was because after being engaged to Anthy she began to define herself through Anthy. It all goes back to the prince/princess archetypes. This could also be the reason why Utena didn't really want to lose to Saionji the second time.


Oh, I just realised that nobody really lost their duels. They all learned something invaluable from it.

Hiraku wrote:

But without Dios or Anthy intervene, how did Utena move Anthy enough to have Anthy break the spell? She IS acting out of a "selfish" reason.

Huh? Break what spell? No spell was holding Anthy in place. She just didn't have the courage to leave. Utena gave her inspiration, that's all.

Hiraku may have meant the spell Anthy imparted into Touga's sword.

The motivations of Anthy are explained a little better in the manga. (In the anime she says, This is like that other time, but what other duel she is alluding to is never explained; it's another example of Ikuhara changing his mind or running out of time.)

In both versions Utena is fighting more for herself. Wakaba says, Take back what you lost! and Utena starts thinking of Anthy. It's a good depiction of how idealism and selfishness can get mixed together.

It may well be that Utena is never truly fighting for Anthy until after she is stabbed.

brian wrote:

(In the anime she says, This is like that other time, but what other duel she is alluding to is never explained; it's another example of Ikuhara changing his mind or running out of time.)

Anthy's referring to Dios, there. Akio talks about it in the following episode.

Hiraku wrote:

Assuming that Anthy knows Utena's true motive behind participating all those duels, wouldn't she be more disgusted by Utena's feigned nobility than being moved by it?

It seems Anthy is, at least, unmoved by Utena for most of the first arc. Although Utena herself doesn't realize how selfish she's being; Anthy, who has no self value, wouldn't believe someone else is going to truely care about her. In the second duel with Touga, Utena admits she's acting in her own interest, which is better than being blind to it.

Regardless, Anthy isn't moved by what Utena's motivation is, just that Utena is willing to die for her cause. Much as Dios was willing to sacrifice himself for the princesses of the world, none of whom Anthy cared about. In both cases her intervention prevents that sacrifice.

So I wonder, would Anthy have changed her attitude towards Akio and Ohtori if she'd allowed Utena to be killed? (Assuming Touga went that far, which is doubtful unless by accident.)

Ah! That cleared things up, thanks.

But I don't think Utena really knows how she feels about Anthy until at the very end, either. I remember before the final duel when Juri asks Utena if Utena loves Anthy. Utena denies that the feeling can be called "love", but she can only repeats, "Himemiya and I... Himemiya and I..."

I think Anthy... starts caring about Utena toward the end of 2nd Arc, it was apparent when Utena wakes up finding Anthy asleep next to her holding her hand. Or, was that just the duty of a Rose Bride.

Last edited by Hiraku (03-18-2007 07:23:34 PM)

There's one chinque in Anthy's apathy and jadeness: Dios. Anytime Utena was particulary noble and stupid (brave sorry) we saw her all shocked and amazed. So if anything Anthy's progress falling for Utena is more trackable than the otherway around starting with the first duel. Part of it is the fact that little Miss "I wanna be a prince" is particularly bone-headed. Oops sorry naive...

Nanami's second duel hit me pretty hard, personally... I cried... ;-; She and I have the same greatest fear: finding out that you really aren't that important or unique, especially in the eyes of someone you love, and wanting most of all to surpass everyone's expectations of you, and surpass yourself... I was affected by her first duel, too. "It's your fault... it's your fault..." To me, it was the most intense of the first arc duels, and shocked and impressed me the first time I saw it.

Oddly enough though, I could understand Wakaba's duel and I empathized with her feelings but it didn't hit me as personally as it did to a lot of other people. Because I have someone that assures me that I'm a special, unique person, outshining other people, even if I don't always believe that. The episode in its entirety did make me cry, though. The very end of it.. Wakaba's expression. I think I cried a little there, but not during the duel.

But I think I can relate to each of the duels, to an extent. Everyone should be able to, because they're all different reflections of what makes people... people.

Basically there is the triangle of Akio, Utena, Anthy.

All of the other relationships are variations of that triangle or commentaries or mockeries of it. For example Juri/Shiori is what Utena/Anthy might become if things turn rancid. Kozue/Miki are a different way of looking at Anthy/Akio and also Anthy/Utena.

etc.