You know what, you've done a great job of summarizing something I'd completely taken for granted. I can't really do much more than agree with you-- Nanami really is the worst thing that could happen to Keiko, Aiko, or Yuuko, because in trying to get closer to Touga, they've separated themselves from the masses and made themselves individuals that Nanami can target.

To be honest, you're so right that I kind of wonder whether anyone else will post about it when all they can do is agree... but it's really great to see it all written out and analyzed like that. That's an essay I'd love to see on the site. Any other thoughts on Keiko?

That was a good anaylsis! Not long at all, there's never too long when it comes to Utena feel free to throw in some more if you want.

I'm tempted to agree with some of Hikaru's response as well. She wants to be special which makes me think they were *originally* in it for Touga but were *mostly* in it for Nanami or at least lost sight of the original goal in all the glamour of the step towards it. Another thing that makes me think this is, and don't quote me harshly because I don't remember too tough, but at the beginning of the black rose arc episode I think there's a scene with all three girls in the room talking, I don't even remember them talking about Touga, I really don't, I remember them fawning over how lucky and grateful and appreciative they are that they met Nanami and that she *chose* them, almost like they were the *chosen ones*, like being friends with her would make them *special*, much the same way being close to Saionji elevated Wakaba. It's like if someone of a higher rank than you thinks your worthy of their attentions it makes you something better somehow. It's weird because I'm sure this chosen one thing is a recurring theme in the series but I can't put my finger on it, like the seitokai are chosen ones, and I remember Mikages secrectary going, you may be one of "The Chosen". A rant for another day perhaps?

And Nanami apparantly warned them not to get close to her brother, or that they'd be consequences if they did, so I'm guessing they may not be with her so much to get to him anymore. Especially if they hardly see him or are further away from him than they originally were to start with. I think it's kind of like picking poisons, her position with Nanami buys her status but the down side of it is the crap Nanami dumps on her, what it does to her dignity and the fact that pursuing the object of her affections is actually a dangerous task. I don't think that she believes that Touga and her can have a deep and meaningful relationship, she see's him as being from a different world, but if she can get close to him, just a little more above the average swarm, than that's enough, she still has the prestige that an alliance with Nanami gets her anyway. So I think after awhile it's no longer be with Nanami to get to Touga so much as that root is so obviously and painfully flawed, meaning the two goals become seperate again. I think it's more they want the privilage of staying with Nanami and they want to be closer to Touga. But the two desires unfortuantely clash.

Which might be why she takes both oppotunities that are given to her in the series, the second one hardly enough to make her Touga's wife, but she's at least alone with Touga and her words make it obvious she doesn't want Nanami to learn of this---what's important though in this scene is the fact she doesn't care--she's smacking lips with Touga still thinking Nanami's he's sister, she doesn't wait to find out that their not related before she makes takes the chance, she thinks they are and takes it anyway. She doesn't need to wait for Nanami's rank to diminish, Nanami's a crap route anyway and it didn't buy her neither of the oppotunities she grasps, but she would like to go back to her physically and socially unharmed and still revelling in being one of the chosen. What I thought was interesting and has already been mentioned somewhere, Keiko calls Touga cold when he says he's line about not being Nanami's brother and not really caring about her, and is pretty non-responsive when Nanami hits her, she only hits back when Nanami denounces her as a person, which makes me think issues of status, rank and worth are more the name of the game than love and romance. Keiko has this whole erggg, the injustice! the audacity! errgg why can't I do what I want! thing going on, more than the weepy kind of sentimental angst some of the other characters have. Also she's a Libra. I rest my case.

Hikaru wrote:

The worst Nanami can do to Keiko is just making everyone in clubs and classes alienate her. She doesn't have influence over Touga such that he would actually listen to her and dates other girls instead of Keiko. Touga himself is pretty selfish and proud. And, Nanami's biggest threat is Utena (Because Touga is after her), but the worst she's done is a package of curry powder she didn't use and a head statue from the elephant trio.

I'm not so sure Hikaru, I also agree with the idea of Keiko being wary of Nanami, I do think its legitamite, I mean seriously, rejection by my friends, friends I knew *before* Nanami by the way, alienation from the things and people I enjoy---do people even go outside Ohtori to do their hobbies?? O.o Keiko would of had some pretty empty school life, also poisonous curries and and being stripped maliciously in front of a crowd is not my cup of tea either, and we know by the final episodes that Nanami can "bust you up" Saionji (though comically) and the trio themselves being an example, we also know from her first duel with Utena that attempted murder and killing harmless animals isn't beyond Nanami. Reason to be scared. *nods* ah-ha!

There were a few interesting things about Keiko's episode that I remember sticking out. For example when she shares her umbrella with Touga, the umbrella is yellow and so is her top, but what's strange is that this is one of the few scenes where we don't see Nanami in her colour, she's in a sort of liliac or lavender isn't she, a colour I assosciate with Akio and a colour I remember not having a lot of positive connations either. Could Keiko by Touga's side in Nanami's colours reflect Nanami's fear of being replaced, or perhaps indicate Keiko's inabitlity to escape her, Nanami seems to be part of a system Keiko has come to resent, and its something that she's had to fit into in order to make the best of it (shown by the shirt) and Nanami herself is a danger that's constantly over her head even if Nanami wasn't physically present she would be pyschologically, (perhaps shown by the umbrella in Nanami's colours being over her head) she's chosen to carry this umbrella to divide herself from the masses, she's no longer caught up in the downpour, and she's going to use this umbrella to get close to Touga.

To be honest when I first watched that I actually thought she was going to *give* Touga the umbrella and than use it as an excuse to see him alone later, as she'd be collecting it. Yea....I know strange....

Anyway Keiko's love for Touga is as flawed as most of the cast anyway, she talks about Nanami hogging him and monopolizing he's attention, and she sounds a like a miffed child at times yelling at her friend over a toy, "I want a go! How comes you always get a go! It's not fair just cos your DNA gave it to you!", there's little appreciation for him as a person.......there's something in Wakaba's pursuit that though similarly flawed rings a little more sincerely, the fact that she has knowledge of the entire student council and yet doesn't kowtow to any of them and yet *still* picks Saionji specifically is reflective of her tastes, there's something in him that she wants outside of he's position at school.

I'm curious to know what other people made of the umbrella Anthy was holding at the start of the duel, the red and white made me think of Touga as Keiko's prince but I never thought too hard about it.


Off topic: did anybody else think Anthy's words at the end of that black rose episode was her referring to herself?

Hiraku wrote:

Oh, no, I know very well that Nanami's good with lots and lots of malicious (even murderous) schemes, they're VERY damaging to Keikos' place in school, but they're more of a roundabout methods. And it appeared to me that Keiko is more worried about her place in school than about Touga (Then again, being able to date Touga is something that would certainly earn her a spot in the higher-ups of the Ohtori hierarchy). I didn't think convincing Touga to leave Keiko is one of them. She would've just told Touga to leave Utena a long time ago if permanently losing Touga's attention is as easy as that. Whether or not Keiko is aware of Nanami's true place in Touga's heart is something that may need further analysis, though.

Eheheh... as far as Anthy's umbrella is concerned, though, I didn't think much either except that it matches her own color and very "Indian-esque". And, I can't help but feel that there's an intent of mockery and ridicule coming from Anthy (Like the milkshake... god, now I want milkshake)

Oh no I seperated both points no I defintely agree that Nanami has no power over who Touga see's anyway and actually though grudingly accepts that, in fact I mean with the lack of scrupples Touga shows in most cases I don't think telling him anything bad about Keiko would affect him.

Well.....Anthy is.....Anthy *sighs* oh god the milkshake, that deserves it's own thread......

I don't have a lot to contribute to this discussion because I mostly agree with the major points. But I read this whole thread, so I'm going to make a post about it, by gum!

I'd have to agree with the idea that Aiko and Yuuko have given up on getting any closer to Touga than their service to Nanami allows them. Keiko, on the other hand, may be looking at the bigger picture. The fact is Touga is going to settle down with someone eventually and, no matter how much he may or may not care for his little sister, it certainly can't be Nanami. It's also unlikely to be any of the nameless admirers that surround him. I think it's possible that Keiko is looking ahead to that far off day and hoping that if she works really hard it might just be her that he picks.

In that way, her service to Nanami is still logical despite how illogical it may seem to the viewer. First, Nanami uses the trio of girls almost entirely in acts against those she views as threats of stealing Touga's attention. Although it means getting her hands dirty, Keiko is able to ensure that no one else will have an easy time reaching the object of her affections. Not only is Nanami more likely to pick the right targets, but she also gives the official orders, meaning Keiko has a thin excuse for her own actions. Second, just serving Nanami allows Keiko to be close to Touga on occasion, and when she's being careful it flies under Nanami's radar. Thirdly, whoever ends up with Touga is going to have a much easier time if Nanami approves or, at least, doesn't completely hate the girl in question. Keiko is undoubtedly the leader of the three girls, she takes point, she does the slapping and the talking and most everything else. She likely hopes that her diligence will pay off eventually, if Touga has to pick a girl, who better than loyal, faithful, near-perfect Keiko?

Of course she slips up. The umbrella in the rain, we see her pause to contemplate the situation; weighing the potential benefits against the potential detriments. It's just a personal opinion, but she doesn't seem to hesitate based on shyness or fear of rejection. It looks like she knows this would be overstepping her bounds (especially given Nanami's attitude in this episode) but she can't help herself from following her heart.

When she learns that Nanami might not be Touga's actual sister the whole plan goes out the window. Suddenly it doesn't seem as if Nanami's standing is relevant at all. In that case, Keiko doesn't need Nanami's blessing, approval or anything else. She couldn't ingratiate herself more than a blood relative, but remove the blood and it's all fair game. Thus she's sickened by how much time and effort she expended into a dead-end of an adopted sister when she could have been giving her all to stand above the swarm.

It turns out I had more to say than I thought. There are other things I wanted to mention, but that's enough rambling from me for now.

I think ultimately Keiko and her buddies want nothing from Touga that Touga isn't himself busy trying to get from someone else. Keiko strikes me as thinking she's emotionally interested in Touga, but her behavior and relative lack of evidence to support that suggest it's more the status and power and prestige she'd get being his 'favorite'. I think this contrasts Wakaba, who I would say, Hiraku, is much more genuine in her interest.

Wakaba was perfectly happy to hide Saionji in her dorm room and keep him entirely to herself. She told no one and felt no great compulsion to do so. It's not the status she wants from Saionji, it's simply Saionji. Keiko, on the other hand, I strongly doubt could hide Touga in a such a way without surreptitiously spilling the beans to every gossip in the school. When she's in the garden with him, she expresses concern for being out in public, but you get the impression from her voice she's completely full of shit, and except for Nanami possibly pounding her face in, she really wants everyone to see what she's doing.

In this way I almost want to say that really, Touga provides the same thing, potentially, that Nanami does. Only he's the far, far better deal. Keiko and her friends seem to want to make themselves special and standouts, and they figure this is best done through relative closeness to the people who are already that. If this isn't a primary motivation I think it's still there, because it's how they survive Nanami's BS at all. Their position at her side is still better than having none at all. It's just that Touga is really the prize there.

There are a lot of examples of people chasing power, prestige, status, in the series. But contrasting Touga with these girls you get a very strong sense of the show's view of what it means to be special. Akio harps on that in Wakaba's duel episode, and the show itself supports him by pretty much beating into the ground any character that doesn't have funky colored hair. Touga is relatively successful in his pursuit of power, but he's special. He's charismatic, motivated, and...male. Unfortunately he's not as (shortbuslol) special as Akio, but I'd still say he's pretty successful overall. Keiko and her group are ordinary girls, there's really nothing notable about them, and unlike Wakaba, they never even get their moment to truly shine. They're stubborn and able to take abuse, sure, but they don't have what it takes to jockey for status or truly go after the things they want the way Touga can. Touga usually compares to Saionji on the issue of status and power, but here you can make a comparison in the similarity of their willingness to do things. Touga sleeps his way up. Keiko and her girls you get the distinct impression would do the same if they could bag the elephant (haha funny saying to use here), but it goes to show it takes more than that.

Another thought I had while reading the essay was that, is it possible Keiko, Aiko, and Yuuko put up with Nanami as well as they do because deep down, they think they could supplant her, or ruin her by their abandonment? You have a figurehead here that does none of the work and in fact relies rather readily on the efforts of these three, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think if you were one of them that you could destroy Nanami. If not by leaving her without workers, by what you know about her that others don't. And if nothing else, three to one SHOULD give you an advantage in a fight. (Didn't. Wow.) But this comes back to comparing them to Touga in my mind. He'd know how to work that position, how to use what he knows and the responsibility given to him to work out an advantage. They lack the sense for it.

Wow, I only mentioned Akio like twice! I'm so proud of myself. But I don't want to hear any more of this 'oh oops i'm talking too much' crap! Kids are acting like analyzing is something to be ashamed of. Not so. This thread is awesome and I endorse it wholeheartedly. Things are never as obvious as they look, especially when it comes to SKU.

Hurrah, even more to talk about!

Ragnarok wrote:

Although it means getting her hands dirty, Keiko is able to ensure that no one else will have an easy time reaching the object of her affections. Not only is Nanami more likely to pick the right targets, but she also gives the official orders, meaning Keiko has a thin excuse for her own actions.

I can see what you mean, but I'm not sure I'm getting that vibe from Keiko. She seems to be more angry and frustrated that she's stopped from even getting her CHANCE at being with Touga. I'm not sure how much she wants to beat down anyone else looking for that chance, but that's something to consider.

Ragnarok wrote:

Thirdly, whoever ends up with Touga is going to have a much easier time if Nanami approves or, at least, doesn't completely hate the girl in question. Keiko is undoubtedly the leader of the three girls, she takes point, she does the slapping and the talking and most everything else. She likely hopes that her diligence will pay off eventually, if Touga has to pick a girl, who better than loyal, faithful, near-perfect Keiko?

I think that's only partially true. Nanami is very childish and unrealistic about keeping her brother's affections all to herself, and I don't think she would EVER be content with it. And she seemed to be even MORE insulted when she found out Keiko was interested in him, because the "parasite" turned out to be right in front of her. It seems that Nanami would more view her as a traitor than be happy that it's someone she likes. Maybe after some time to cool down she would stop holding that grudge, but I don't think she would ever give anyone interested in her brother an easy time of it.

Giovanna wrote:

Wakaba was perfectly happy to hide Saionji in her dorm room and keep him entirely to herself. She told no one and felt no great compulsion to do so. It's not the status she wants from Saionji, it's simply Saionji.

I do agree that Wakaba was motivated more by genuine caring for Saionji, but couldn't it be said that she also wants status? Not social status, but she wants the status of being important to someone, needed by someone, the status of being "special" instead of just another girl. I think that's a much less selfish need for status, though, since she feels she gets it just from being needed by someone she loves. Maybe I'm stretching the meaning of the word 'status' a bit, though.

Giovanna wrote:

Another thought I had while reading the essay was that, is it possible Keiko, Aiko, and Yuuko put up with Nanami as well as they do because deep down, they think they could supplant her, or ruin her by their abandonment? You have a figurehead here that does none of the work and in fact relies rather readily on the efforts of these three, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think if you were one of them that you could destroy Nanami.

At the very least, I think there's a lot of resentment that Nanami really wouldn't be so special if it weren't for her connection to her brother. They could be just as special in the same position. Maybe they do have some thoughts of fighting back by removing that status, but I don't think they'd act on it. Besides, it's sort of done for them when it turns out Nanami's unrelated... though I wonder why all it takes is a beating to get them back on her side. What could she have threatened them with?

Coco Melancholy wrote:

These parasols were originally used by the attendants and handmaidens to protect the Maharajahs and Maharanis from the fierce Indian sun.

Hmm, a thought. Might this be to suggest some sort of contrast between the two? Anthy has a sun umbrella, Keiko has an umbrella to protect her from the rain. Anthy has her own colors (what she wears anyway) on hers, Keiko has Nanami's. I don't know what difference that would be pointing out, though. Any ideas?

Keiko was just a slave. But, one day she realized, that her master is not a godess. Her soul was broken. It is sad, but people in our life are masters,slaves, or just people...

Alexandra wrote:

Mooshay wrote:

Hmm, a thought. Might this be to suggest some sort of contrast between the two? Anthy has a sun umbrella, Keiko has an umbrella to protect her from the rain. Anthy has her own colors (what she wears anyway) on hers, Keiko has Nanami's. I don't know what difference that would be pointing out, though. Any ideas?

I would very much like to hear what anyone has to say on this matter.  It would be very interesting to compare Anthy's servitude to Keiko's using this as evidence.  You would think the sun and the rain would mean different things in this context, as well as the colors.  It would add more to where Keiko stands as well as satisfy my craving for a bit of Anthy goodness. 

I don't really think it has to do something with a contrast between these two.
Keikos umbrella actually was orange, which forms if you mix red AND yellow. Anthy may have her own color, but in fact both of them are just some kind of slaves, a person whose will is choked. The both have a master, they both obey almost termless and the situations they are in are a tiny bit alike.
They may have different motifs but thinking about it, I get the feeling they are more similar than diverse.
Just my two cents. And I am not too good at analizing

Last edited by DeepSubmerge (05-03-2008 02:33:22 PM)