As long as they stay in this Academy, they wont grow. How true is that sentence?

They do grow and age normally, but won't become adults as long as they remain in the Academy. Unless one is too valuable to be given up, in which case special arrangements are made to stop that individual's personal time, as happened with Nemuro/Mikage. I don't believe that the characters have been in the school longer than they should have. Considering the troubles that had to be taken to force Nemuro into stopped time, it doesn't seem likely that every Duellist would get the same treatment.

Last edited by Lightice (01-17-2007 02:24:18 PM)

I tend to think that (aside from Mikage, Anthy and Akio) the people at Ohtori are aging normally. Not that it would be a great trouble to stop them if Akio wanted, but I'm not sure he'd choose to. The Student Council that we see is a great tool for Akio when it comes to spurring Utena along, to the point where I'm not sure how well it would work on someone else. Since Touga and Saionji interacted with Utena way back when, we know they're aging (or not) at the same rate, so if Touga has been celebrating the same birthday every year it means Utena must* have as well.

*Ok, this is Ohtori and the rules probably aren't even that well defined. But we have to try!

At the start of the series it's stated that Utena has been attending classes at Ohtori for one semester or something to that extent. If so, it's likely that the council have been aging normally at least up to this point. Alternately, here's a fun theory that ran across my mind a few weeks back:

What if this isn't the first time Utena got involved with the duels and Anthy? Maybe Akio's tried different scenarios which just didn't pan out as well as he'd have liked? Instead of scrapping the whole thing, couldn't he just mind-wipe everybody and start again, tweaking his methodology? It's next to impossible to say this hasn't happend. Maybe he was going to reuse Utena again at the end of the series, but go about things slightly differently.

Well, it does show Nanami aging during her time at Ohtori in episode 9 (you know, the Tsuwabuki one...) And he was a little kid there too.

This is really what makes me honestly consider that Ruka might have been that brown haired man Shiori took from Juri.  I mean, we never know what he used to look like, and that he left, and his hair really REALLY looks like it could be a dye job. X__x (okay, that was a bit much but you get the idea)

But Shiori also comes back for an undefined period of time, and looks pretty much the same, while Tokiko leaves for who knows how long and comes back all wrinkly.

I really honestly think that Ruka was a past duelist, champion or not, and that Mikage was a ghost who found his own special kind of eternity. But those are two very different topics methinks... X__x



Movie Wakaba certainly seems to have been that same Wakaba for a VERY long time...

Ragnarok wrote:

What if this isn't the first time Utena got involved with the duels and Anthy? Maybe Akio's tried different scenarios which just didn't pan out as well as he'd have liked? Instead of scrapping the whole thing, couldn't he just mind-wipe everybody and start again, tweaking his methodology? It's next to impossible to say this hasn't happend. Maybe he was going to reuse Utena again at the end of the series, but go about things slightly differently.

Who's to say he doesn't? Just because Anthy said she's gone doesn't mean she's right. She could be leading herself on a wild goose chase looking for Utena when she's hiding under Akio's big desk (I said DESK) the entire time...as his new Rose Bride.

Okay, so you didn't buy that. Eh.

How about this, then? Just because Utena left doesn't mean she's not coming back. Look at Ruka. I'd almost be willing to bet he was the previous Victor of the Duels, and his "illness" was a plot convenience courtesy of Akio. If he wasn't the Victor, he was a former Council member(probably the former Miki!) that was no longer useful to Akio. Then all of a sudden, he comes back for the sole purpose of giving Juri a reason to duel...so she can get what she wants. Ruka's not there for himself, other than his love for Juri.

What if Utena ends up doing the same thing? It's already shown that everyone's slowly forgetting their Utena-sama at the end of the series, Wakaba's even getting pounced by some nameless girl.  Akio will somehow pull a more knowledgeable, slightly less naive Utena back to Ohtori as a motivational tool for one of the new Duelists(assuming all of the previous Duelists have "graduated"). She knows how the duels work, she's been where they are. She goads one of them into dueling, after showing them how it's done, and promptly rides off into the Akio-devised sunset.

That particular version works best with Wakaba as a Duelist, I think. Also, any of the other Duelists could do the same thing, especially since I think that the Black Rose Duels were really just auditions for the next round of Duelists.

Raven Nightshade wrote:

That particular version works best with Wakaba as a Duelist, I think. Also, any of the other Duelists could do the same thing, especially since I think that the Black Rose Duels were really just auditions for the next round of Duelists.

That goes almost along with my personal theory about Mikage, that he is continually reused for the new dueling games. Though that could be brought under debate But he is the end to all Master Duelist. He is the only duelist that saw through Utena's jump. Akio, nor Endowed Kozue, and Touga couldn't even see through it. It would make sense to keep Mikage around. As a true to word ghost. A memory living a memory, no previous experience of being revelated by the voice of Mamiya yet doomed to repeat it. Simply the Black Rose Proprietor, where he is destined to lose... again.

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Interesting thoughts

As much as I find those ideas interesting I still have to disagree. Even if there had been an unknown number of previous duelling cycles, I believe that after the final duel it's all put to an end. Meaning that this could not be repeated, and that's 'cause Anthy was out of the game (I believe that because Akio was so closely tied with Anthy that he wouldn't have much power on his on. So my theory is that after Anthy leaves, Akio would most likely start to change as well, just like everyone else did. What else is there left for him?).

Also, if there'd be another duelling game after the end of the series (doesn't matter if it involves Utena or not) then this would pretty much make the point of the show meaningless. The duels represent the everlasting cycle and in its nature it's meaningless. Think of doing something over and over again but not gaining anything at all from doing so. The duelists were seemingly trying to bring forth a revolution, while in reality they wasn't able to do so because partly they weren't really yearning for it. This is very debatable though, in the end some of them really wanted to make a change, but their reasons were quite selfish, or they lacked courage to accept a change. This is why they remained to be a part of the cycle. You'll keep on running in the circles unless you don't notice others, only after that you can find a new path. This is why Utena was able to do something that any of the other duelists couldn't, she found a new path (it was because of Anthy, or perhaps the wish to change the path Anthy was following), and that's what the revolution was all about. I think this is why she disappeared from Ohtori afterwards (and also why Mikage, Ruka (possibly?), Anthy and others left Ohtori too), Ohtori represents those meaningless cycles so when you become aware of it and thus are not tied to it anymore, you don't have a reason to stay there.

Now, what about the other duelists? Why didn't they leave when Utena and Anthy did? They'd leave right after they have finished school. As you could see in the end of the series, they all had found a new path in their lives too. However, they did it more slowly and gradually (still with the help of Utena), while Utena (and some others as I mentioned above) felt they couldn't fit themselves in the system anymore so they needed more change than that. Or if you remember from the movie the duelists tell Anthy during the car race where the way out is and then they say they'll follow her later (it was something like that, wasn't it? I really can't remember ). That's the same thing. The other characters would just finish school normally and move on.

And now to go on-topic again:

allegoriest wrote:

But Shiori also comes back for an undefined period of time, and looks pretty much the same, while Tokiko leaves for who knows how long and comes back all wrinkly.

Shiori couldn't let go of her past with Juri so she returns to settle things and maybe move on, but that doesn't work out so she's still stuck in the same circle (as is Juri).

(I haven't watched the Black Rose Arc in so long and I might get some facts wrong, please correct me if I'm wrong) It seemed to me that Tokiko left Ohtori after Mamiya died. Unlike her, Mikage wouldn't accept the fact Mamiya was dead and he wanted to make his memories eternal. Tokiko cut her ties with something that she couldn't grasp, whereas Mikage was willing to do anything to grasp it. I think this shows how much Mikage was affected by a death of someone close to him, a normal (haha, that word sounds very unfitting) person would face the inevitable and accept it (just like Tokiko did) because of it's part of life, but Mikage wanted to change things even then and so he got stuck in his memories and denied the truth of reality.
Or shortly: Tokiko accepted the change, Mikage didn't. That's why Tokiko changed and Mikage didn't (until the end of the BR Arc).

Also! Keep in mind that Mikage had been dwelling in Ohtori for quite a long time, a few decades I think. Most of the scenes involving Tokiko are flashbacks where she appears young, and so it's only natural that she has aged when she visits Ohtori again.


Whoa, I wish I could put things down more shortly and in a way they'd make more sense.

Tons of things to think about. all i know is that, If the statement of them not leaving the campus allowing them to remain that age is true, that makes them frickin immortal! that and Akio is a bad bad person for not alowing all of Ohtori academy to grow up! shame on Akio!

i think Gio should Spank him...

Last edited by KissingT.Kiryuu (01-18-2007 01:14:48 PM)

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Who's to say he doesn't? Just because Anthy said she's gone doesn't mean she's right. She could be leading herself on a wild goose chase looking for Utena when she's hiding under Akio's big desk (I said DESK) the entire time...as his new Rose Bride.

No, but I would love to read that fic.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if prior to Utena that's exactly how things went down. They're in high school, most of them, so for the Seitokai he only has in normal terms what, four, maybe five years with each one? That sounds like a very high turnover rate (I typoed rate as rape before I noticed...not kidding.) given the amount of time he invests in cultivating them to his purposes. (Anthy raises roses, he raises duelists, both in their cages! Whee!) I figure he lets the same batch roll around a few times before he lets them properly graduate. Or perhaps time is just being relative, and the same four years of school takes a century with him around.

Raven Nightshade wrote:

That particular version works best with Wakaba as a Duelist, I think. Also, any of the other Duelists could do the same thing, especially since I think that the Black Rose Duels were really just auditions for the next round of Duelists.

Oooo...this is an interesting idea. The first thing getting in the way though is how strongly bound each of them are to older characters that would have been graduating...except Akio might not have planned on that minor detail, in which case they certainly would have been potential duelists. Tsuwabuki and Kozue especially seem to me like there's a lot of duelist potential there...I dunno why those two especially, but they're the first ones I'd pick anyway.

BioKraze wrote:

KissingT.Kiryuu wrote:

i think Gio should Spank him...

I'm simply positive that she'd just love that opportunity, KissingT.Kiryuu...

Now really, do you think I'm the type that would want to spank Akio? Do you think he's the type that would let me?

Giovanna wrote:

NEAT THINGS ABOUT THE STUFF I SAID

Ah, I am but a humble plot bunny. I leave the fanfiction to the fic writers.

I will admit, however, that the idea for the Black Rose Duelists becoming the new Seitokai has taken several forms in my head.  It's mostly because I'm torn between Wakaba, Utena, and Nanami being the new Rose Bride.

I'm not a fic writer but I'm going to try...