Clarice wrote:

Paris Financial District

ENJOYING YOUR HOT FRENCHMEN IN SUITS ARE YOU

Clarice wrote:

b) realising that pleasure can be derived from that area can be unexpected for girls, if they haven't done any exploring themselves beforehand

You know, now that you mention it, this wouldn't surprise me at all coming from Utena. For some reason I just don't get that self-exploratory vibe (HAHAHAH) from her. I can't explain why, it's not necessarily her 'innocence', just...it doesn't strike me as something she'd have done much with yet. Unfortunately I can't really back it up with reasoned argument, is just a gut feeling. Similarly I do get the impression Wakaba's rather intimately familiar with her...intimate places. Again, I can't explain where I get this stuff from. On the other hand I can argue all week about how I suspect Saionji jerks off on a schedule.

Clarice wrote:

I don't know if it could work this way, as we always see Utena from the same perspective (and I tend to assume it was Akio's, although seeing Utena from above in that scene could be symbolic of her bending to the will of another, or as being "fallen"), and if Akio moved I'd expect our perspective to move with him, but...this scene has always confused the beegeezus out of me, I have to admit.

I would say that pretty much all the shots involving Utena are from Akio's POV with exception, obviously, to the shots of him in the car afterwards. Her blabbering, her playing Othello, etc, etc, all appear to be Akio's POV. Utena repeatedly looks right at the 'camera', as it were.


Tucked in for bed, how cute.


Oop. Now the 'camera' is above...why? Well Akio's on top. Of course.


This is that sudden jolt before the twitching.


This is the only of the shots from the hotel room that I would say isn't Akio's POV, because she's still looking up at him, and while he's quite flexible, I don't see why his head would be way over there.

Personal_IceQueen wrote:

Is Utena a fitness nut? I mean, I understand her nervous stretching habit, but, could this have been brought on by ....fitness crazy?

I would say she's just very focused on athletics. The stretching is nothing new at all, she stretches while yapping with Juri, she does handstands while talking to Anthy, etc, etc. It just seems to be a 'character quirk' sort of thing. Actually, in the scene where Akio and Utena are in the planetarium and she's doing the crabwalk thing, I always assumed Akio was referring directly to that behavior (among others) when he notes that she's 'not particularly self-conscious'...which I suppose in itself suggests she was genuinely being a complete dope here and not actually intending to show off her kama sutra compatibility.

Edit for nervous twitch: Given that off the top of my head she does this around Akio, Juri, and Anthy (at moments), I would say there's a lot of fuel for her doing it when she's around intimidating figures. Does she ever do it in front of, say, Wakaba, for contrast?

Last edited by Giovanna (03-29-2007 04:32:48 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

Clarice wrote:

Paris Financial District

ENJOYING YOUR HOT FRENCHMEN IN SUITS ARE YOU

Yes. [runs]

Giovanna wrote:

You know, now that you mention it, this wouldn't surprise me at all coming from Utena. For some reason I just don't get that self-exploratory vibe (HAHAHAH) from her. I can't explain why, it's not necessarily her 'innocence', just...it doesn't strike me as something she'd have done much with yet. Unfortunately I can't really back it up with reasoned argument, is just a gut feeling. Similarly I do get the impression Wakaba's rather intimately familiar with her...intimate places. Again, I can't explain where I get this stuff from. On the other hand I can argue all week about how I suspect Saionji jerks off on a schedule.

Heh, yeah, I just think that if Utena genuinely had no clue that this was going to happen it was only because she didn't really understand what it was (because although Anthy was teasing her some episodes beforehand about her having "all sorts of experience" to wind up Tsuwabuki, I think it was more to illustrate that Utena doesn't have a bloody clue when Anthy or Akio drop sexual innuendos around her...or indeed, get into bed with her ha ha ha). Although she probably has some idea about sex -- most fourteen year olds in her situation likely do -- she probably doesn't know what it involves. From a personal viewpoint, despite having read dodgy romance novels from the age of ten, I didn't have a clue what actually happened until I read true erotica, and didn't have a clue what it felt like until I was about eighteen or nineteen. So yes, I think Utena's just a bit overwhelmed by it all. The poor dear.

Giovanna wrote:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … D_1351.jpg
Tucked in for bed, how cute.

Heh, you see, that's the shot that reminds me of Anthy and Utena's habit of talking before sleep. Too bad that unlike his sister, Akio's about neither.

Giovanna wrote:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/ … D_1933.jpg
This is the only of the shots from the hotel room that I would say isn't Akio's POV, because she's still looking up at him, and while he's quite flexible, I don't see why his head would be way over there.

I can't really tell from the picture, but is Utena's jawline indicating that she's back to actually LOOKING at Akio again?

Personal_IceQueen wrote:

the last picture, when their hands are together is there any significance to showing the hands? I mean, if Akio is wrapped up in his own pyschosexual dynamic, then what purpose would there be to show this, it's a romantic gesture?

From the viewpoint of a first-time viewer, it's the WTF?! moment that leads you to realise "HOLY SHIT THEY'RE SCREWING!!!" [coughs] Or at least, that was how I saw it. Right up until then I thought Utena was just losing it, because while I understood her earlier monologues to be an illustration of her caving into Akio in terms of her principles/morals/mission, I seriously didn't realise what he was doing until I saw their hands. Because until then we just assume it's Akio's POV that we are seeing her from. When we see his hand, it's proof. That's probably the real reason it's there -- it's for the audience's benefit, not hers.

For Utena, though, it's probably comforting. It's also possible he's kissing her at that point (because the only thing that disturbs me about the thought Akio's having sex with her while she blabbers about lunch is that he's not kissing her, which...I don't know why that bothers me, but I can't help but think that would have distracted her some). I think he does have to foster intimacy and a sense of a shared experience here because he doesn't want Utena to go away thinking she's a bad person for seducing him or that he's a bad person for seducing her. If she thinks it's something inevitable that happened because they both felt something overwhelming he continues to have a sway over her that another (i.e. Touga) can not gain. Akio is such a smooth operator. [puts on the Sade and bops along]

I remember reading a fanficiton which pointed out that Utena only stretched when she was nervous around someone...nearly hinting, at in this particular fic, that it was something physical, but not sexual, that she could do, during her current state of...whatever you call it, innocence, oblivion, but subconsciously knowing there is someone on the other end wanting to bite that hook!

It would be interesting to do a rewatch and determine exactly WHEN she stretches and with WHOM. Like, yeah, the Juri, the Anthy, the Akio...but Wakaba? Miki? ...who else isn't exhibiting subvocal lust?

She was being penetrated all right, but more likely by Kanae and not necessarily by Akio. This is all getting so raunchy.

Giovanna wrote:

Edit for nervous twitch: Given that off the top of my head she does this around Akio, Juri, and Anthy (at moments), I would say there's a lot of fuel for her doing it when she's around intimidating figures. Does she ever do it in front of, say, Wakaba, for contrast?

Someone, make a list!

I can't say for sure, but I don't recall Utena stretching around Wakaba. But I may be wrong. Hmm. Didn't she stretch in Nemuro Hall when she was looking at the pictures, before Mikage showed up?

brian wrote:

I doubt that things are happening in chronological order in that episode.

You're right about that. The first thing we see in this episode (after the usual intro stuff) is Anthy in a planetarium calling Akio and asking about the roses. After that we get the flashback of Utena and Akio in the hotel room. The scenes that take place in the hotel are all in chronological order. However, there are also scenes with Akio driving his car and listening the radio. All those scenes happened before he went on a date with Utena 'cause in the last one we see him saying that he has some business to take care of. We know what kind of business that is. And then in the very end we see Anthy again calling Akio. This is the same scene as seen in the beginning. I think all those things were deliberately mixed up like that to give the viewer an impression of something that's confusing or different; this is very much like Utena must have felt during that episode.

Oh yeah, and to make things even more confusing there are also recaps of previous episodes. YAY!

That episode where she stretches in front of Wakaba, she seems to be doing it out of some nervousness/discomfort about bringing up the fact that Wakaba seems different.  I think it's a habit of hers, due to her being athletic, but one that she does more/more inappropriately when she is nervous or uncomfortable in some way.

I don't know if Akio is kissing her in that shot where their hands are joined; she turned her head to the side and I thought her head might still be turned to the side.  If so, it's not that odd a posture during missionary position intercourse, if her head is turned away and her neck is bent away a little (avoiding looking at his face), he will be looking at the side of her neck and her shoulder.  The angle and distance seem a little strange, but not entirely...  Although upon a second look, it does look like she's turned her head back, if that line is her jaw.

It might be noteworthy that we don't really see any evidence of him kissing her at all throughout that night.  It's a little unusual to have sex without kissing *at all*, though it really depends on the circumstances...I think these circumstances would be kissing circumstances.  Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, of course, but I wonder why it's never shown?

Again, I much doubt Utena is babbling *during* any kind of sexual act.  I think it's likely something has just happened, such as some fairly intensive foreplay, as I believe she's already undressed while she's talking.  But, as I said, I think it's when she starts shutting up and showing signs of arousal that Akio is actually doing anything.  Why the prolonged break? IMO, for the reason Gio postulated: Akio's own amusement in Utena's guilt and nervousness.

But I think a lot of what we see in this episode are choices made for the first-time audience, so as *not* to suggest too much.  We guess Utena is with Akio throughout the night and that we are mostly seeing her from his POV, but this isn't confirmed until we see his hand and then, with certainty, when they get into the car.  And the fact that they've played with the chronology, too, means a play-by-play of what happened once they were finally in bed (based on that one scene) is pretty difficult.

I notice I've avoided answering the original question...when did Utena know?  Subconsciously, she probably knew early on.  Consciously, she was probably *very* surprised that it happened.  I don't see her as the aggressor with Akio.  I can see her the aggressor with someone closer to her own age, if she had made up her mind; but I see that circumstance as being difficult to come by given her naivety and defensiveness with boys.  (I think one of the reasons Akio was able to get under Utena's skin at all is that he is older, engaged, and acted as a counselor to her--putting her in a mindset in which she wouldn't expect overtures from him, and therefore wasn't looking for reasons to be hostile.)

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (03-30-2007 01:08:50 PM)

It seems likely that Utena's stretching is just her personal neurosis, like Miki with his stopwatch. A lot of the characters have habits that signify their problems:

Utena - Stretching (constantly showing off her strength in order to avoid being judged by other people)
Miki - Stopwatch ( possibly being a perfectionist)
Anthy - Roses (caring for her budding princes)
         - Ice (acting like an ice queen:tongue:)
Akio - Stars (psychotic enchantment with the demented world he rules)

I'm sure there are others but I'm going to cope out and say I'm really tired^_^

Personal_IceQueen wrote:

but I want to really want to know, as no one has addressed the answer:
Is Utena a fitness nut? I mean, I understand her nervous stretching habit, but, could this have been brought on by ....fitness crazy?

Well, she's very athletic. She probably stretches a lot, anyway, so when other people would fiddle their hands or stare at the ceiling, she stretches, because that's what she feels most comfortable doing. Or that's my take, anyway.

Personally, I believe that Utena quite consciously knew the implications of the hotel room, and wanted something to happen, but was in serious denial about it, and ultimately wasn't least bit ready for any of it.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I notice I've avoided answering the original question...when did Utena know?  Subconsciously, she probably knew early on.  Consciously, she was probably *very* surprised that it happened.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Few human beings are that stupid. Utena knew Akio had sex on the brain a lot like many red-blooded men, but she was so blinded by her crush that she expected him to be a gentleman.

Anyway, your first time isn't something you "figure out." It's something you consent to.  Utena probably didn't know what he wanted until he started petting her and then he probably told her he loved her.

She's fourteen. This man is too gorgeous not to believe. Nobody's ever warned her about sweet talkers. Face it, Utena was doomed from the beginning.

mmm, good call there Katz. In the scene with Juri in the...sixth episode? "Unfulfilled Juri". She stretches in a kind of sarcastic way. Sort of her way of saying "I'm not buying your shit, so I'll make fun of you now." But in this scene with Akio, she's trying to distract herself from a situation she isn't genuinely ready for. But still a way of putting herself more in control.