Hah. Unsurprisingly, as a gargantuan yuri fan of nearly 20 years, I like that angle even more, although I'm not sure I buy it. It's a fact though that Juri, much much later, jokes about having been attracted to Utena. But was it really a joke? What about the moment where Juri unexpectedly supports Utena after her defeat by Touga, offering her a sword? It's an interesting idea. Certainly one that could help to explain the sudden vehemence of her response. Thanks for posting it.

...apparently, my lesbian best friend has always thought the same thing, that this is the reason for Juri's sudden fury. I guess it's time to consider it more seriously. Honestly it never occured to me because Juri's seemingly eternal self-sacrificial devotion to Shiori has been for me one of the hallmarks of her character. Even when Juri makes the "joke" about being attracted to Utena, she's still pining for Shiori as she always has been. But I definitely do like it as a possibility. Now I need to rewatch the scene with that viewpoint...

Last edited by Aelanie (06-12-2016 11:54:59 PM)

Huh, I never thought Juri's feelings during the fountain meeting scene were in dispute.

Just ask yourself: if she were attracted to someone besides Shiori, how would she behave toward them? I think her encounter with Utena checks all the boxes. She tries to get close to them -- in a much more guarded fashion than she would approach anyone else -- and when they do something to remind her of her unrequited crush, she lashes out. Her expressions in that scene really give it away.

Every woman in the show seems to me to represent a decidedly different take on femaleness.  By contrast, I see more uniformity in the way the men are presented, boiling down to just a few variations.  How different are Akio, Touga, and Ruka in their takes on maleness?  How different are Tsuwabuki, Tatsuya, and Miki?  We know that men in the real world usually get more latitude in how to perform their gender role than women do; why is SKU different?  Or is it only in my imagination that SKU is different?

I think there's a lot of variation in the male characters. Touga, Ruka and Akio aspire to something of a common standard, but even they have differences. Touga is more of a showoff than the other two, while Ruka is willing to depart from the glamorous archetype, veering into the brusque and even the brutish when it serves his purpose. Of course, Ruka is trying to accomplish a goal knowing he has an expiration date, so who knows how he'd normally act.

Tatsuya is much more of an average, somewhat shy adolescent than Miki, who appears to be kind of alienated from gender expression entirely. Tsuwabuki is hard to compare to anyone else given the age gap but he's already shown a much more proactive and outgoing nature than the other two so I think he'll be very different when he's their age. And Saionji brings a whole different masculine dimension with his traditional Japanese approach.

On the other hand, female gender conformity is a big running theme in SKU. Consider all the scenes with throngs of fawning, nigh-identical girls. Utena's non-conformity is called out, but this never happens with a male character -- not even Mikage or Miki. Most of the main female characters are really exceptional in some way, but ones that aren't so much, like Shiori and Nanami, seem to hew pretty closely to the Ohtori norm.

And IRL don't women have more latitude when it comes to gender performance? They can go from very feminine to fairly masculine before anyone looks askance, but for men the bounds are much narrower, at least until recently. They are allowed some range of movement within the masculine domain, but moving even slightly onto the feminine side of the spectrum has immediate negative social consequences.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

That doesn't quite ring up with my experience.

It depends on the culture, of course, and I wouldn't be prepared to speak for contemporary Japan, but in the States, at least, I see a lot more concern with "what girls are wearing" and a lot more warnings to we re rape and what can cause it, than I do similar policing of young men. The male dress code, in terms of work attire, is often much much more lax in most professions. Etc. Vocal fry as an applied criticism/descriptor solely of women, alone, should stand as a pretty good example that even enunciation and vocal range is limited for women. Resting bitch face.

Interesting perspective. The concern over what women wear, rape etc. seems more like policing of sexual behavior than gender expression, and no doubt that's harsher for women than men; men are held much less responsible in that regard. Now, at work, currently women can range from skirts to pantsuits to men's suits, but imagine the reaction to a man wearing a skirt to the office. In the past it was more restrictive for both genders, of course.

And there's been some criticism of vocal fry and RBF, but it seems to me that "unmanly" trends among men always cause more of a shock. From skinny jeans and man-capris today to the goths and hippies in the past. "Oh my god, that guy's wearing eyeliner!" Also seems like a good way for a subculture to get attention, come to think of it.

Japan may actually be the other way around. Looking at the visual kei bands, hosts, actors and examples from Japanese history, men can go for a rougher or softer aesthetic but women who depart from femininity cause dismay. And it would feel a lot more discordant if Utena wore a real boys' uniform. I think it's the same in a lot of non-Western cultures -- in many, the only way for a woman to take on a non-feminine role is to go all out and disguise herself as a man.

To add to the discussion of Juri from the fountain scene -
When Juri says to Utena, "I see you keep your uniform on even at night... Why do you wear a boy's uniform?", my immediate interpretation was that Juri suspected that Utena might be queer as well, and was seeking confirmation (check out Juri's posture and demeanor when she asks the question.) Utena's response immediately dashes this hope - she says that she wears the uniform because of her prince (a male figure,) and she heavily implies that she's in love with said prince. So I think part of the reason why Juri was so inflamed by Utena's response was because she was really hoping that Utena was like her (in the sense of being a queer woman.) Not necessarily because Juri was interested in Utena as a love interest, but because she was seeking solidarity. I don't think Juri's closeted queerness is the defining aspect of her character, but it probably contributes to her loneliness and distrust of others (as in, she feels like the heterosexual majority won't fully understand her struggles.) That's the interpretation that came naturally to me, as a queer woman myself. To clarify, I don't think that's the only reason why Juri lashed out (Utena's response definitely struck her in other ways,) but I think it was a contributing factor. So Juri's sudden anger in this scene has never really seemed OOC.

Last edited by swordclash (06-14-2016 11:09:47 PM)

During the fountain scene, there are two moments where Juri breaks eye contact with Utena. The first being when she asks Utena why she wears the uniform. Juri is looking down and fiddling with her fingers (or looking at her nails) at this moment.



The second time her eyes are averted is when Utena says, "I remember the prince looked so impressive to me. And that's why I want to be like him. Yeah. I guess I wear this so I can be a little bit closer to him." Here Juri has her arms in a locked position by her sides. She then stands up and switches her arm position to one arm holding the other close to her side.



This posture is suggestive of seeking comfort since she has not received any comfort. Since she decides to look away from Utena during these moments it could be that she is insecure. Notice that these moments occur after Utena tells Juri, "You look pretty cool in your uniform...but I'll bet everyone would be really surprised if they saw you in such a girly outfit." While being told this, Juri's facial expression goes from this



to this.



Her eyebrows become furrowed and she begins to frown. Juri does not want to be associated with or seen "in such a girly outfit." Until this moment Juri seems at least content in her encounter with Utena by the fountain. From this moment onward, disappointment is written on her face. Perhaps this is due to Utena expressing her reasons for wearing her uniform as remembrance to the prince. With Utena's rhetoric in her explanation, Juri might not have heard an answer where Utena describes the uniform as a way of highlighting a male portion of her identity. Whether Utena herself sees the boy's uniform as a means to identify herself rather than the prince later on in the series may be something that requires more discussion. Yet it was not the message that was relayed to Juri. This situation leads to Juri feeling insecure once she is aware that Utena does not see her in the same way that Juri sees herself. I think it is a sound argument to claim that Juri is queer and seeking solidarity given the multiple instances of her changes in facial expression and body language.