I dont remember exactly the scenes with Touga after she loses the duel, but sleeping with Akio felt like it was not her first time.
Maybe if Touga didn't have sex with her, then maybe it was Anthy who introduced her to it.
One thing that is really certain is that Dios when he showed her Anthy ripped by swords when she was young, he told her: if you keep your nobility as you grow up and do not forget it once you want to be a normal girl (falling in love and what comes with it) then you can save her. This is proved in two times, when Touga tricks her of being the prince and she falls for him, she loses the duel, and becomes a normal girl again(forgetting her nobility) when she wins the duel again, after she is having sex with akio we come to gradually to the end of the series where she loses the duel to akio, but once she sees his motives she manages to save Anthy in the expense of her own life though.

In the movie it is clear that she had sex with Touga since he was her late boyfriend, and possibly has sex with Anthy as well.
In the manga we have Touga who is actually really in love with Utena (I don't remember is they had sex there or not) but she sure falls in love with Akio and have many times sex with him and even confesses that even though she knows his motives she can't stop loving him.

in all stories though when she has sex with Akio she doesn't look like a virgin.

Jacrad wrote:

I'm actually very curious about why you don't think she looks like a virgin.
Is it the willingness to go through with sex with Akio? Her body language?

not so much the willingness but her body language, she seems to know what to expect. And for a girl like Utena who seems naive in more everyday situations, she has a difference stance when it comes to intimacy.

That is more obvious in the movie, when she is surprised with Anthy kissing her during the duel with Saionji, then at the bedroom, she knows what Anthy went there for and tells her along the lines that she doesnt want what she offers (which is said in a naive tone without much thought from Utena) and when her naiveness wears off she takes Anthy down to the bed and you know the rest.

Utena in general seems an experienced person, but that side of her only shows when she becomes intimate with someone.

When would it even have happened?

Utena duels Touga for the second time two days after she duels him for the first time.  Episode 12 mostly takes place on the day of the second duel, and they definitely don't have sex on that day; the camera follows Utena, Touga, or both from morning till the duel.  The day in between is mostly off camera, but we see Wakaba visit Utena after school to find out why she skipped class, and Utena's bearing then is the same as her bearing the following morning, so they didn't have sex that evening.  So if Utena and Touga had sex, they must have done it between the end of episode 11 and the beginning of episode 12.

We can narrow it down further.  At the end of the first duel, Touga walks out of the arena without a backward glance, so he certainly doesn't walk her home.  Anthy does come back to the dorm that evening to collect her things and paper over her name by the door, but we see her departure in flashback from Utena's point of view, so Utena was home that night, and I don't think sex on a bunk bed is Touga's style.  He wouldn't even fit.  (Moreover, Anthy is definitely alone in the flashback.)  That leaves the morning after the duel, during the school day.  But Utena's still in her pajamas when Wakaba arrives; she never got out of bed.  So either Touga had awkward uncomfortable bunk bed sex with Utena while they both skipped school, or they didn't have sex.

It may actually be true that Touga skipped school that day.  The Student Council meeting of the following day is his first after winning Anthy.  But I don't think Utena is the person he was most likely doing.

To be sure, the first duel itself is a kind of symbolic sexual conquest of Utena by Touga.  I suspect that's what your friend is picking up on.  But I don't think literal sex happens between them.  Chronology aside, I feel sure of this because, sadly, Touga is too attentive to Utena afterwards.  On the day of the second duel, Touga leaves the Student Council meeting, struts downstairs to ask Utena out, then goes back up to the balcony to get his tea on.  Touga can barely be bothered to say "nah, there's only you, girl" to his flunkies on the telephone, or to exchange ten words with his fiancee.  I don't think he has it in him to perform a grand romantic gesture like going downstairs for the benefit of someone he's already fucked.  That's to say nothing of his jealousy of Akio or his nighttime date with Utena during the Apocalypse Arc.  Touga may have had sex with Anthy, Kozue, Akio, or any of his flunkies, but Utena is the one who got away, and this is part of the reason he spends the rest of the show obsessed with her.

Edit: There's also the problem that Touga doesn't get off on sex.  He gets off on being adored.  Akio is happy to have sex with a reluctant and half-dissociated Utena, because Akio has sex in order to manipulate people.  But that's not Touga's thing.  The whole point is that the girl is supposed to want him.  Utena was in no state to give him that the day after the duel.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-04-2014 10:19:00 PM)

You think it might have happened on the day of the second duel, with Utena in her girls' uniform?  That's hard too.  Here's a complete list of the scenes in episode 12 on that day.

1. Utena arrives at school wearing a girls' uniform, exchanges tense words with Anthy.
2. Anthy in tow, Touga gloats to the Student Council about how the prince and princess always end up together.  Juri says the last scene isn't here yet, because she's smart.
3. Touga comes down to ask Utena out.  He professes shock at seeing her in a girls' uniform, asks her out in front of his fiancee, and touches her.  Wakaba is a little upset.  A slapfight ensues.  Touga departs with Anthy close behind him.  Utena and Wakaba argue about whether Wakaba understands anything.  Wakaba runs off.
4. Eyecatch.
5. Tea for two on the Student Council balcony.  Touga's on the phone with an admirer, and leaves to "go over there right now."  Anthy has a sad.
6. Utena finds Wakaba by the fence.  Wakaba decides this is not a dramatic enough place to talk.
7. Utena and Wakaba talk in front of the Shadow Girls' backdrop.  "Not being normal is normal for you."  One of the ten best scenes in the show.
8. Interrupted by repeat flashback to Anthy's departure two nights ago.  New shot of Utena standing alone in her room as Anthy leaves.
9. Resume conversation.  "If something was stolen from you, get it back!"  Utena and Wakaba love each other a lot.
10. Utena confronts Touga in the greenhouse as he cuddles with Minor Character-chan, again in front of his fiancee.  Touga thinks she's here to accept his date.  She is not.
11. The Shadow Girls wonder if you know that they are aliens.  I for one am shocked.
12. Utena accepts a sword from Juri ("you'll need it to set the last scene").  Juri-sama kakkoii~!  Utena walks to the arena; we skip Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku.
13. Duel.
14. Utena walks home, is intercepted by Anthy.

They didn't have sex before (3), because this is the first time Touga has seen Utena in a girls' uniform.  It didn't happen between (3) and (5), because we're watching Touga more or less continuously during that time.  It didn't happen between (5) and (6), because Touga is occupied with someone else at that time, and because it would be incongruous for him to later think she's come to accept his date.  It didn't happen between (6) and (10), because we are watching Utena more or less continuously.  And it didn't happen after (10), because Utena is back to her usual defiant self and not vulnerable anymore.  There isn't a half hour during that day when Touga could have done anything.

Again, none of that is to say that Utena doesn't feel violated.  There is absolutely a sexual subtext to this pair of duels that involves Touga dominating Utena.  The way he wins the duel in episode 11 is pretty similar to the way Akio gets Utena in bed in episode 33 -- technically Utena seems to submit to both of them, but she's not exactly enthusiastic -- and her withdrawal afterwards is similar in both cases.  But I don't see where Utena and Touga can literally have sex.

Last edited by satyreyes (08-05-2014 09:55:30 AM)

Aelanie wrote:

I've been ignoring this discussion because I frankly find the idea too ridiculous to comment on, but I would like to point out that this...

Karuka wrote:

In the movie it is clear that she had sex with Touga since he was her late boyfriend,

is not the case, because - as people seem to forget - Touga died as a child. Touga in life never was the tall, cynical and seductive man we see in the movie, and it's a valid theory that he exists in that form only because that is how Utena's thoughts and feelings toward him gave shape to him within Ohtori.

Also of course, there's this:

in all stories though when she has sex with Akio she doesn't look like a virgin.

Normally I would here express a rhetorical and sarcastic desire to know how one is supposed to "look like a virgin", but I fear that that would actually lead you to attempt to explain it.

You have been ignoring the thread yet you come to reply with sarcasm, since this is the case I will reply with sarcasm as well.

when I talk about Utena I never refer to only animated media but also the manga. In the manga-movie Touka and Utena have sex, a lot of it, 5+ pages are dedicated to them in different positions



as for your last remark about me explaining my sentence is in the least rude.
let me mark what you should have exactly read in that line

in all stories though WHEN she has sex with Akio she doesn't look like a virgin.

(sarcasm) I get that when you have a lover in your bed you can not tell if they have had sex before or not right, it is not at all obvious from their body language (/sarcasm)

As you see we all can play the game of sarcasm, but I'm here to have a conversation of opinions not a fight

Have a nice day