I'm not sure if Anthy didn't feel resentful.  After all, the episode preview commentary on episode 36, Anthy did say that she always held Utena in contempt.

I knew that might come up. However, even if you accept preview dialog to be "on the table" (which is dubious at best), Anthy's only saying what she thinks Utena needs to hear.

Anthy is trying to save Utena by pushing her away, getting her fed up enough to walk out. That's the reason Anthy engineered the revelation of her relationship with her brother. That's the reason Anthy ambushes Utena with her passive-aggressive comments in the scene where Utena tears up the final duel summons.

That being the case, of course it makes sense for Anthy to claim, "Oh, and I always hated you" which, as we know, is not true at all.

Last edited by Aelanie (04-17-2009 12:50:36 AM)

Personally, I'm in no doubt Anthy holds Utena in contempt.  You don't manipulate and con people you respect.  Don't get me wrong: I think Anthy likes Utena, needs Utena, maybe even wants Utena.  But she also holds Utena in contempt.  Anthy has convinced herself she's content to spend eternity in this prison with Akio, after all.  Hell, she asked for this when she imprisoned Dios in the first place.  She's come to think she deserves to suffer forever for what she did.  At some point she and Akio set up the dueling game, but it's always been for show and Anthy knows it, and since then there have been a procession of some unknown number N of would-be princes whose soul-swords Akio broke against the Rose Gate as the failed princes themselves lay defeated and dying on the floor. 

Utena?  She's just the next failed prince in line.  Sure, she seems different from the others.  Gentler, more friendly, treating Anthy the way Anthy always watched Dios treat other girls.  But I mustn't get attached, because she's fallen into the trap just as surely as all the others, and just as they failed me Utena will fail me too.  She's not even a boy, for God's sake.  Where does she get off thinking she can be my prince?  She's not like Dios.  No one can ever be like Dios.  If I thought someone could be like Dios I'd have to feel things about them, maybe even betray my brother for them, and if I did that it would make my whole captivity meaningless because I'd discover I could have freed myself anytime.  Obviously I can't have that, so nobility is worthless and Utena is a fool to even pretend to be a prince.  She doesn't know anything.

Hence contempt.  Of course in reality Anthy does love Utena, at least as a friend.  She tries to protect her.  I think the cantarella is simultaneously an expression of contempt and a warning, and I think the suicide attempt is a genuine try at ending the cycle in a way that won't hurt Utena or Akio.  But when the shit hits the fan and Akio pushes Anthy behind Utena at the end of episode 38, we see whose loyalties ultimately, however reluctantly, lie where.

satyreyes wrote:

Personally, I'm in no doubt Anthy holds Utena in contempt.  You don't manipulate and con people you respect.  Don't get me wrong: I think Anthy likes Utena, needs Utena, maybe even wants Utena.  But she also holds Utena in contempt.  Anthy has convinced herself she's content to spend eternity in this prison with Akio, after all.

I can say from experience that when I was in an abusive relationship, I allowed myself to be used to manipulate and con people, and I never held them in contempt.  I kept hoping, silently and secretly, that they would see what was happening and flee, like I couldn't.

tohubohu wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

Personally, I'm in no doubt Anthy holds Utena in contempt.  You don't manipulate and con people you respect.  Don't get me wrong: I think Anthy likes Utena, needs Utena, maybe even wants Utena.  But she also holds Utena in contempt.  Anthy has convinced herself she's content to spend eternity in this prison with Akio, after all.

I can say from experience that when I was in an abusive relationship, I allowed myself to be used to manipulate and con people, and I never held them in contempt.  I kept hoping, silently and secretly, that they would see what was happening and flee, like I couldn't.

It sounds like you can relate very strongly to Anthy's situation, because you pretty much exactly described how I interpret her feelings. I hope you were able to make a clean escape in the end, too. <hugs>

Last edited by Aelanie (04-17-2009 09:03:08 PM)

That's wonderful.

Last edited by Aelanie (04-20-2009 09:33:08 AM)

A lot of good points about the true nature of Anthy's contempt toward Utena here. Just like what satyreyes said, Anthy had no faith in Utena winning the duel. I think Anthy started of seeing Utena as a meddlesome figure who disrupted her normal life in Ohtori. I found this poem by Sara H. Hay (“The Sleeper 1” [1961]) in which the princess says:

But if he thinks that with a kiss or two
He’ll buy my clearest privacy, or shake me
Out of the cloistered world I’ve loved so long,
Or tear the pattern of my dream, he’s wrong.
Nothing this clumsy trespasser can do
Will ever touch my heart, or really wake me. (Hay, lines 9–14)

Probably this is close to what Anthy thought of Utena in the TV series, don't you think? Anthy was contented to stay in the cloistered world of Ohtori. Anthy grew comfortable in remaining in her own coffin. The last thing she wanted was a meddlesome, wannabe prince to bring uneasiness to her life. This was exactly what happened, Anthy developed feelings toward Utena somewhere in the series (I am convinced), yet her original attachment to Akio did not disappear right away. It only diminished gradually. It was possible that Anthy was conscious of the slow prograss. She was probably shocked and confused by the new feeling for Utena and old loyality (or whatever you want to call it) toward Akio since both cannot co-exist. This could be what drove her to blame Utena.

Last edited by Itsuke (05-31-2009 10:23:52 PM)

What does the word "contempt" actually mean? To me it is not a synonym for hate but of condescension. You can be insulted by someone for whom you feel either hate or love but the insults of someone for whom you feel contempt are merely dismissed and forgotten like the insults of a pouting 4-year-old. There may even be room for compassion or affection. In the manga she encloses three of the Setokai in crystal coffins and simply remarks sadly that they are being held back by their own weaknesses. In the series she has a stricken look in the wake of "Nanami's Egg" episode that implies that she felt bad about tormenting her tormenter.

Most of the time it is unlikely that either Akio or Anthy waste energy hating or loving any particular individual except each other.

Anthy's feelings toward Akio may be complicated. However, I really think Anthy and Akio's relationship resembles those old married couples who hate each other but still won't dissolve their marriage; as if they have made the conscious decision to stay together due to some twisted sense of loyality, but at the same time they take great joy in tormenting each other until one of them is dead. Problem for Anthy and Akio is they really can torment each other for eternity. Thank god Utena shows up to break the cycle.
At the end of the story, Utena fulfills her promise to Anthy by opening the coffin. That is the original motivation behind Utena's lifelong goal to become a noble prince. She should realize at that point that the person she has been searching for is not Dios, but Anthy. (Besides, after finding out what a prick Akio is, can she continues to feel sentiment toward him?) The reawaken Anthy must realize the relationship with her borther is over. Whatever feelings there was for Akio had duely ran its course. Her last comment to Akio is a simple: Right, I have had enough of this shit. You can stay here and pretend you've got the world's biggest penis. But I am leaving you to chase after my pinkheaded dyke~

Yet, there is one point that I am not too certain. Anthy remarks on a number of occasion that Utena reminds her of Dios. But before the final episode, do you think Anthy actually remembers her earlier meeting with the young Utena?

I just watched episodes 34 and 35 again tonight, and it definitely seems like Anthy is starting to think that there's something familiar about Utena.  On the other hand, Anthy only opened her eyes at the very end of the flashback, so there really wasn't all that much for her to remember.

Also, we have no idea how many other crying children Akio has shown the suffering Rose Bride to.  It could be a hobby of his.

Itsuke: Anthy's feelings toward Akio may be complicated. However, I really think Anthy and Akio's relationship resembles those old married couples who hate each other but still won't dissolve their marriage; as if they have made the conscious decision to stay together due to some twisted sense of loyality, but at the same time they take great joy in tormenting each other until one of them is dead.

I like how you put this, the analogy works for me. Although I would add that I think there's an element of "love from that time long distant" that doesn't go away in those kind of relationships, and thus adds to the pain. That's what I theorize Anthy might feel even when she makes the decision to leave the shell of her brother behind.

As for how much of child Utena's vow Anthy remembers...I think she remembers it but it's not real to her. It's like something you saw once a long long time ago, that seemed impossible, and not very important through what you were dealing with (in Anthy's case the pain of the million swords).

A scene that's like a puzzle piece that doesn't make sense to much much later, when lots of other puzzle pieces are beginning to fit into place. Then you remember it fully (and it's kind of awe-inspiring, kind of, although it seems so stupid), but it's still not important, because of what you're dealing with and the way you know things must be, so you dismiss it and act live you always have.

To put it simply: denial..

Series!Utena, throughout most of the series, is in denial regarding her feelings for Anthy. She doesn't even consider there's a chance that she might be bi or a lesbian - I get the feeling that the idea might evenseem disturbing to her. She is obsessed with finding the prince..

Movie!Utena is more conscious of her feelings.. Even if only a little. In pretty much first line in the movie, she flirts with Wakaba. and Anthy is uninhibited in the movie, her hair down glasses off etc. Utena can't fight her attraction so easily. I really love how the movie shows them being more honest with themselves in so many ways.

Anyways.. I get the feeling that Utena has trouble accepting her romantic love for Anthy. In the series she represses it, in the movie she is at least conscious of it but her obsession with Touga and the prince clouds it..

In both series and movie form I think Utena has wanting to BE a prince confused with loving a prince. So she sees her own admiration for Touga and Akio (before she learns how unprincelike they actually are) as love when really she saw in her admiration of what she believed them to be, what she wanted to be herself.

Her love for Anthy is selfless and genuine. Maybe I'm just reading way too much into it but, I see Utena as partly a story about a lesbian coming to terms with herself. Going to the length of forcing herself to sleep with Akio, even, even if she instantly regretted going that far. To be "normal". but I might be biased because I grew up a very repressed lesbian myself. I'm 22 and only began to accept it a couple of years ago. but Utena being bi vs lesbian is an irrelevant argument, lol. Only going by my own experience on that one

I get irritated when people completely deny anything more than friendship between Anthy and Utena in the series.

Last edited by artemis88 (07-11-2011 10:46:25 PM)

That's a good question, Kale...I can see the point that saving someone because you love them would make your act less selfless, and therefore less princely, but I disagree. I think it was Utena's lack of real love for Anthy that prevented her from being the prince early on, and the immature, still selfish nature of her love that prevented her from being the prince until episode 39. It seems to me that if Utena was playing the prince out of anything other than unconditional, consummate love for Anthy, then yes, she is less of a prince. I don't think this is the case in the series. Whether it had a sexual tone or not, I firmly believe that Utena's love for Anthy in the series was pure and true - she ended up loving who Anthy was in the end, not her idea of her (like everyone else) - and that is what made her a prince. Pure, unconditional love is the hallmark of a prince in my mind, because it is hard to love someone unconditionally, without other motives, the way Utena ends up loving Anthy. As for the movie, I definitely feel like Utena's love for Anthy was not unconditional and pure - just romantic, which I definitely feel made her less of a prince, maybe not even a prince at all. I'm not saying that romantic love isn't a princely thing, just that romantic love without unconditional love for the other person is selfish. So yes, Utena's lack of unconditional love for Anthy in the movie prevented her from being the prince in the movie. I would even go so far as to say the love that Anthy found for herself through Utena made her her own prince in the movie.

Just my thoughts.

Anthy's moral nature is interesting - we don't see much evidence that she's capable of altruism or "good" behavior. Her most arguably "good" acts come before and after she's impaled by the million swords - first, she seals Dios away to keep him from working himself to death, then after she's free she says she'll go find Utena. But both of these acts serve her own desires at least as much as they serve Dios and Utena. Her attempted suicide could be seen as an altruistic act to keep Utena from going to the final duel but it could also be seen as cowardly and selfish.

For the bulk of the series her actions are completely selfish and her main pastime seems to be psychologically torturing the people around her. You could even say she's more of a villian than Akio because she holds the true agency in their relationship by enabling his behavior. But most viewers root for her to escape just as Utena does.