Which is why there really isn't a need to be shocked when a person seems to be doing something that's "out of place" for him or her. This reminds me of what Anthy said in that episode where Juri said that it's none of her business what happens to Shiori: Juri acted "out of character", but it is still a part of how she really feels. Throughout the series, we see that Juri shows this undying passion for Shiori, and then at the episode before Utena finally confronts her "Prince", Juri confessed that in the beginning, she was thinking for herself, and in the end, all she can do is still thinking for herself.

Of course when she said it's none of her business, in my opinion, it really isn't any of her business anyway.

This also reminds me of how Utena says "Boku" and "Kimi" all the time, while when she's still a little girl in the coffin, I could have sworn she clearly says "Watashi"

In my opinion, though, I don't think the mask is necessarily fake. Rather than seeing it as a mask, I prefer to think that characteristic is being developed the same way a person chisels on a stone. You work on one part, and later on, you work on another side, until you have a multi-faceted diamond. I think we have potential to be many kinds of people, it's just a matter of opportunity and time.

Last edited by Hiraku (09-26-2007 08:26:02 PM)

Ooooh, I like that. And Yasha has Faust right here.... :contemplates:

What's odd there though is she hasn't changed her role or anything, she sheds the dress only to take on the true role of the Rose Bride...but perhaps that's the point, the dress covers up the real definition of what the Rose Bride is, because whenever she takes swords (except as a child) there's at least a suggestion of nudity. The shadow images of her taking them form a nude body, she's nude above the arena, even in the car, though she's wearing clothes when we see her writhing, there's the suggestion of nudity in the shot where the swords are visible. Of course, there are exceptions, the swords pop out right before Akio draws his own and she stays clothed, but that nudity is a pretty clear theme there seems to suggest it's supposed to show us who she 'really is', since it's not hard to imagine a lack of clothing being rather like having peeled off enough of the onion to see the center. What do we see from Juri when she's nude? A face of her she never shows anywhere else. Touga nude in the shower seems to be...pretty much Touga everywhere else. His ego is practiced. But you see him and Akio half naked for a large chunk of the latter part of the series; and in those scenes there are ample peeks and suggestions at who they really are as people, but never anything as explicit as the whole picture at once.

I just woke up. I reheated day old coffee with orange peels in it.

It's pretty good.

Speaking of which, when Utena loses to Touga she switched to the regular uniform at a time when her belief in herself is greatly shaken.

Not to mention that during her fight with him, her school uniform was brutally and aggressively ripped, which can be interpreted three principle ways -

1. Touga's rendering her vulnerable and exposed, much as he managed to tear away at her confidence in her own princely status. Utena, in her most vulnerable state, is almost always depicted in something different than her typical uniform - dressing in a more feminine dress for her dates with Akio, nude in her sex scene, in pajamas for her nighttime conversations with Anthy. The battle is really a good metaphor for Touga's at least damaging her unswerving faith in her prince and in her own abilities.

2. Conversely, the rebirth of that identity. It's no mistake that she's wearing that less practical dress during her fight with Touga rather than her uniform: as she re-discovers her strength, Touga is slicing that other symbolic idenity off of her. Though he deprives her of her certainty, it allows her to rebuild as a wiser duelist.

3. It involves sex, so it's the best one. Touga's need to not only dominate Utena, but sexualize the defeat as much as possible, accentuating the weakness of her gender and her submission to him. Another duelist might have been contented to just defeat her and take the prize, be it Anthy or whatever intangible reward she represents. Touga's objective in this one was ultimate possession of Utena and conquest, so it's a very good insight into his character as well.

Touga, you bloody little pervert.

Anyway, the attire part is interesting, because it ties in with what I mentioned earlier about Anthy's crown resembling the thorns of Jesus. Has anyone else noticed any direct Christian symbols in the character's clothing? I'm right now trying to do some research on the meaning of Akio's tilak, but I have to imagine I only need search the vaults of "The Long-Legged Older Man" to find it.

Excellent ideas. Here's a fourth point, although it may be just a variation of 2. Utena has begun the process of "casting off." She doesn't need her uniform anymore to be a prince.

It also shows the limits to Touga's gallantry. He seriously flips out during the duel and comes close to killing her. He shows no mercy to a vulnerable-looking girl. The rips in her clothes highlight how much danger she was in.

Okay, I'm at work right now so I can't actually scroll through all the pages to see if someone's already explained this...

But I gotta ask some questions about Ruka, the greatest dude on the face of the planet.


Firstly, I think we all know by now that the boy Shiori thought she "stole" from Juri in Ep. 07 is not infact Ruka, but some stupid dude. Does Ruka know about all this? Or was he just -told- by Ends of the World that his best friend and crush was being hurt by some burgundy haired chick?


Secondly, I'm not sure if I thought this up myself, or if I read this...but Ruka's little "condition"...was it a coincedence that suddenly his illness was in remission, or was he offered a chance before he died to help Juri? Like, maybe he was visited while in his sickbed by 'someone', telling him that he can become well again, and free Juri, if he becomes a duelist? If so, do you think he knew that he'd die if he didn't defeat Utena, but didn't care because he just wanted Juri to be okay?


Thirdly, I was reading all that symbolism in this thread: http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=959, and how chances are Utena did not die, but left Ohtori. All them girls were chatting about where that random girl went...that she was injured, or got expelled, or died...

Did Ruka really die? Or did he free himself from Ohtori Academy? Maybe his "death" and his "Illness" was all symbolism, even if it was real in the manga. What if Ruka had transferred from Ohtori because he didn't need to be in a coffin, but came back when he found out how miserable Juri was?

Crap, it's been so long since I've watched Whispers in the Dark and Azure Paler than the Sky...I forgot what Ruka says to Juri in the rain after she costs herself the duel...

Ruka's a friggin' cool guy. Doin' all that for Juri.

st0dad wrote:

Secondly, I'm not sure if I thought this up myself, or if I read this...but Ruka's little "condition"...was it a coincedence that suddenly his illness was in remission, or was he offered a chance before he died to help Juri? Like, maybe he was visited while in his sickbed by 'someone', telling him that he can become well again, and free Juri, if he becomes a duelist? If so, do you think he knew that he'd die if he didn't defeat Utena, but didn't care because he just wanted Juri to be okay?

Now that's an idea! I do think it's possible that Akio visited him in his sickbed, but Ruka was already a duelist. He left the academy due to his illness, but prior to that he was a member of the student council and we assume he was a duelist as well. However, Ruka clearly wasn't completely well, and he'd been out of the academy for quite a while (I would imagine, seeing as no one seems to have known him anytime before Juri was captain). Why return now? I think EotW may have some answers to that. Nice catch!

Did Ruka really die? Or did he free himself from Ohtori Academy? Maybe his "death" and his "Illness" was all symbolism, even if it was real in the manga. What if Ruka had transferred from Ohtori because he didn't need to be in a coffin, but came back when he found out how miserable Juri was?

I can never decide if I truly believe Ruka to have died. In the manga, Juri refuses to believe that it is true, and in the anime she speaks as though he will return once more, to explain everything. But, all in all... I don't see Ruka's death as a 'graduation' or sorts, like Mikage or Utena. Because he was diagnosed of this illness off campus, for once I have to think inside the box and say that while it surely can hold some metaphorical value, in the end it probably was true.

Crap, it's been so long since I've watched Whispers in the Dark and Azure Paler than the Sky...I forgot what Ruka says to Juri in the rain after she costs herself the duel...

In the original:

Ruka:  Juri, don't worry.
Ruka:  Don't worry, Juri.

In the dub:

Ruka: It will be alright, Juri.
Ruka: I swear I'll make it right.

Sorry, I've watched these episodes forwards and backwards in each language so many times. I always have to resist the urge to quote both versions. But I had to this time, because it's one of the rare moments where I actually liked the line better in English.

....The Chairs!!!

I just finished watching the Ruka episodes
and during the Juri Vs Utena duel, Shiori sat in her chair facing Ruka's....
But afterward, Shiori was gone and her chair was facing Juri's.
And at the end of the episode, Juri's chair faced Ruka's, which wasn't there anymore.
Then Shiori was following Juri...

Wassat mean? o.<

Juri is a fallen angel as well. She was probably pretty nice in middle school, but now she's slapping Anthy and freaking out at Utena. Even so, I find that I can find more similarities between Shiori and the devil than Juri, and I think a lot of people will agree with me on that.

I think the problem with trying to find the 'real' Anthy is there's nothing to say all of those aren't the real Anthy.

Well, that's what the lyrics do say:

Angel and Devil are the two of me

This creates a division that can symbolize being torn between two extremes.  But it's also a simple fact: I am me and I am both good and bad.  (Abraxas in Demian is a god that does not force us to make artificial divisions between the good/light and bad/dark parts of ourselves and our world.)

So Juri is Devil as much as Shiori is, even if it's not always easy to find examples.  And Anthy, more than any other character in the show (yes, I am Anthy-centric), exemplifies how we can be both vengeful witch and vulnerable princess.

The inside is hollow, hollow, hollow

That's one of my favorite duel songs, so I ALWAYS think of that line when Anthy disappears from her dress.

As aside, great analysis of the ripping dress in Utena's 2nd duel with Touga.  I think all 3.5 of those interpretations are true and I've always loved that final picture -- it's a pretty popular shot of Utena on the intarwebs, too, I've noticed.  I'm real big on subconsciously understanding symbols we don't always consciously recognize.

A strange thought about the aesthetics of the characters, with their shorter bodies compared to their legs- is it at all possible that this look was inspired by how shadows look late in the day? I was thinking about it and realised that shadows look a lot like this at sunset.

And if this is the case, what does it mean? That the characters we see are merely shadows of their true selves? That they're some how less than real?

Lissa wrote:

Then again, the only symbolism I've ever caught is how each of the main characters Utena "faces" (Anthy, Akio, Juri, Miki, Nanami, Saionji, and Touga) represents one of the seven deadly sins.

Deadly sins!? Do tell me more! I don't see anyone to suffer from the case of Gluttony, though.

Last edited by Hiraku (10-25-2007 04:38:32 PM)

That's a really interesting idea, and one I've actually thought about a few times. I had a plot for a fanfic along these lines. Anyway, I think Lissa's interpretations are pretty good, but I have a few differences personally.

- Miki, surprisingly, is Lust. Lust drives him to duel, and his loss of purity comes from his desire for Anthy.

- Saionji is Envy. He lives in the shadow of Touga, and much of his rage stems from his feelings of deep inferiority and the need to control. He desires all Touga's power and ease, and as such craves ego sustenance from Anthy. When she is taken by Utena, it is jealousy that drives him to duel twice more.

- Touga is Wrath. Touga's temper is usually very restrained, but manifests itself significantly. Mainly when he nearly kills Utena during their second duel. His rage and calculation towards her rejection and the insult to his ego drives a lot of his passion towards her. That second duel is indicative that he was perfectly willing to beat her into submission rather than seduce her.

Besides that, I pretty much agree, although I think Nanami could easily be Pride and Juri as Sloth. Actually, Juri would fit perfectly into the archaic sin of Melancholia, or Sorrow.

I want to read these fanfics now!
Regarding the seven sins, it seems that every member of the cast presents variations on that theme, give or take. For example, both Shiori and Wakaba can be said to represent, to some extent, "Envy" yet the way they deal with it is considerably different. Since a direct correspodence between character and sin, so to speak, can be problematic one can formulate all sorts of hypotheses. (I should be working on an assignment but I am drawing a complete blank...) For example, I think that Akio's relationship to the Dios-ideal can be classified as "Envy" even if he might not consciously be aware of it. I would rate "Lust" as one of the moving principles of Nemuro's switch to Mikage.