The show seems pretty admant that the adult world is corrupt, or at least, not as good as other people seem to think it is. Sometimes it seems like the only absolute in the whole show. After all, what are the representations of adulthood that we have? Akio, Mikage in a sense, Mrs. Ohtori, and Tokiko. A villain, a poptart fiend, a skank* and a cypher. Sex is portrayed as a very adult thing, and in real life, it tends to be. Not neccessairly adult as in age, but adult as in maturity level, coping abilities and mental/emotional state.

It's concieveable (pardon the pun) that Lil' Anthy and Dios could've macked it, but I choose to believe they didn't. Dios wasn't a Prince in the way that Utena became a Prince. At the end, whatever your opinion on the idea is, if you accept the thought that Utena became a Prince, it's a flawed sort of Prince. A working model. Dios is like the drawingboard ideal. He has flaws, yes, but they're because he's not meant to represent a working model. He's like a cardboard mockup, in a way. He represents the ideal of the Prince as opposed to the truism of it.

It just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that even a dying Dios would do or even allow. End of story. Because he is a personification of princly ideals, it would be out of that frame for him to have sex with her. It jars to me and doesn't flow. So then the question becomes "Is Anthy capable of rape?" And there... well, I'm not as solidly on ground. Rape, psychologically, is about the need to exert power and/or dominance over another person. For her to choose to have sex with him, however it happens would be about being the dominant person in the relationship for once. She certainly attempts to be dominant outside, and her passive aggressive streak is vicious.

I'm totally talking out my ass here, but I've always felt that Anthy has a lot more power then she chooses to show, more then maybe even Akio quite realizes the depth of.

spiralstairs wrote:

transmogrifying into a boy without need of cardboard box

Are you a Calvin and Hobbes fan? Because if you are, we might just have to practice babymaking.

*Note: I mean skank in the way that I kinda' want to grow up and be her.

That brings up an interesting point, though. Akio and Anthy must have started humping at some point, and by the time the series is set, they've been at it so long that it's completely routine. Also, Anthy doesn't seem entirely passive, so it could have been her to initiate it in the first place. I rather doubt it started in the shed, though, but it's TMI for me anyway.

Also, while the adult world is shown as corrupt, I don't think sexual purity plays that big a role. The show doesn't seem puritantically preachy in that respect. I have a hunch that Dios was not unfamiliar with sexuality. In the Shadow Girls' play, his line after he (somewhat) solved each problem was "you promised me a kiss!" I'm sure Dios would act like a character from a stereotypical romance novel in such a role.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure snogging your sibling is at very least a symptom of unprinceliness.

On an unrelated topic, I think we'd all be better off if Calvinball was an Olympic sport.

OnionPrince wrote:

I have a hunch that Dios was not unfamiliar with sexuality. In the Shadow Girls' play, his line after he (somewhat) solved each problem was "you promised me a kiss!" I'm sure Dios would act like a character from a stereotypical romance novel in such a role.

It's worth noting that the "promised kiss" is interrupted each time. Possibly to show that Dios was too pure for even that, it could also be a reference to his inability to commit to any single person since he must constantly act as The Prince for the entire world. Or it could just be the shadow girls being kooky. Personally I think it's a mixture of the first two, primarily the second.

I also tend to think that the sexual relationship didn't develope until some time after Anthy sealed Dios away. Either in the process which caused him to become Akio or perhaps the final step itself. As to Anthy's witchly powers, I consider them a product of Dios's seal: Anthy isn't a prince (in the traditional sense, I know there's a thread about this. ) and she doesn't have the full Power of Miracles, but she does have some access to it, enough to account for some of the stranger things she does. How exactly she sealed Dios away in the first place... I don't think it can be explained without metaphor.

Ragnarok wrote:

It's worth noting that the "promised kiss" is interrupted each time. Possibly to show that Dios was too pure for even that, it could also be a reference to his inability to commit to any single person since he must constantly act as The Prince for the entire world. Or it could just be the shadow girls being kooky. Personally I think it's a mixture of the first two, primarily the second.

That's true. I think that if it was an actual metaphor (or something other than the shadow girls being kooky), it could be more insight into Akio's character. If Dios is indeed too pure to receive the rewards a princess can bestow on him, and basically gives his life saving the world for nothing, I can definitely see his alter ego's motivation for sexually dominating everyone he feels like.

(By the way, that scene reminded me a lot of the old Legend of Zelda cartoon. Link was always trying to get Zelda to kiss him, but he got shot down every time. Poor hero. Anyone else remember that, or am I just the biggest nerd ever?)

You know, when I watched that episode, I thought she'd just told the angry mob that she sealed him away to get them to leave him alone, not expecting that whole million swords deal. I thought little Dios was lying there in exhaustion and that, by letting his dearest sister be the one girl in the world he couldn't save (partially due to the sexual connotations of "saving" a young girl), gradually started becoming End of the World. That he sealed shadow of himself up in that castle with his princely abilities and then finally succumbed to becoming Akio after he informed Utena of the situation. Maybe why he and Anthy started bumping uglies was to make up for the fact that as pure children they couldn't, which is what led to both their downfalls...?

Yeah, I don't know. I think Anthy was capable of whatever she wanted to be capable of.

Last edited by NajiMinkin (12-14-2007 03:56:58 PM)

I have a thought. Anthy and Dios were sort of like equals IMHO; he needed her, she needed him, so they more represent what could be viewed as a Pre-Christian set up, where the Gods could be siblings and yet still marry, cause, dammit, they are Gods... and yet the conventions even when Dios was around were Christian/Patrician... so in a sense, they were like remains of a perhaps more egalitarian society stuck in an extremely class/gender/race-based society. I believe the theory that they were ageless, but I don't think immortal applies to them-Dios could be killed and perhaps even Anthy, but not while she is/was the Rosebride... the thing is that the belief of the people was what kept them ageless-eternal children, and because people still believe in the Prince and the Witch, Akio and Anthy as they are in Ohtori are kept alive and still much like children. When Anthy is set free, she looks very adult, ne?

...but as both the catalyst of Dios's power and perhaps with a bit of personal power, her magic was probably more overt than Akio... it is just a matter of whose hands it is in. Utena doesn't know squat about it, so it is hardly ever used by her consciously. Touga did know and did use it, though it failed.

So I ask, why wouldn't Anthy use it more blatently? Heehee.

I actually have an answer to that: Where Akio uses sex only where needed, she uses her own power when needed-why expend them when it's not needed? Juri's first duel called for it. Often, only her actions and reactions are needed... besides, she probably thinks most of the time that this cycle will come to the same conclusion as the rest.

brian wrote:

What's really strange is that the duelists have no curiousity about Anthy's magic. They never ask where she got that fabulous sword that they all desire or wonder why she cannot use it herself.

On further thought maybe I and some other posters are on the wrong track. In the end the magic isn't "real" magic but symbolism. Anthy's magic and Utena's miracles symbolize the power of the female to transform the world and herself; whether recognized or unrecognized, whether constructive or destructive or just trivialized.

I don't know why, but I can kinda relate to poor Dios/Akio.  Maybe not in a sense of fucking your sister, but in more of being a prince to everyone and no longer being a prince.  Kindness can be shown, but there's a point where it's being abused.  Anthy sees through this though, and realizes that despite the fact he's happy saving others from their problems, he's being taken advantage of to a certain degree and seems empty.  She tries to save him from it, but goes about it in a wrong way, causing him to get sealed away and the public to get angry at him.  She becomes bitter in the process, realizing that in trying to save her brother, she's become hated and hunted, and he's lost his will, so in turn the bitterness turns her into a witch.

where was i going with this?  i got distracted (damn being raised on ritalin.  there is no such thing as A.D.PLASTIC BAG!!! *runs off chasing plastic bag*)

oh well, maybe i'll remember and finish this post later. :\

and BTW, Calvin & Hobbes is the best comic ever, and although lame, The Legend of Zelda cartoon is still funny.

brian wrote:

Just guessing but probably laying the eggs far apart from each other maximizes the food each caterpillar gets without competition from the others.

Wait... isn't the stuff about the caterpillar eggs in the BRS thread?

I don't think that Akio would actually *allow* the new Rose Bride to perform any magic, really. I mean, even though Anthy was an "empty soul" or whatever, she had a reasonable amount of free will. She just didn't have all of it. I have a feeling, since I'm sure Akio has a fair amount of magical power, too [he must, really] he'd keep the new Rose Bride in enough of a stupor so that she'd only fulfill the most basic needs a Rose Bride can provide. [That sounded dirty. ]