sissyhiyah wrote:

Ugh.  I don't even know where I'm going with this.  I suppose my question is whether or not true nobility even exists, especially when nice squishy minds like Utena's are so impressed with the idea that there is something pure within people.   Dios was never that far removed from Akio.  He was just a better actor.   So what does this mean for Utena?

...or maybe that's just it. The wandering prince needs someone to believe in him. Think of how he must go in search of these maidens, instead of them coming to him. In Dios' case, we see a crowd of people come to his door demanding his power, though he is battered and broken. They don't want him, they want what he can do. Those people aren't seeing him as their savior, a real prince. They see him as a tool... a machination to end their own suffering.

I think it's interesting that Anthy is the one forced to look beyond the power of Dios because of her love for him as her brother. The reason she understood that enough was enough.

This is a point. It seems that most in SKU want to escape their preordained roles. The only people who seem to do that (however ineffective) are Akio and Utena. Tenjou becomes this Princely figure through her own volition, though it was a notion conceived from a childhood moment. Akio's image has transformed from his origins as a prince into something almost entirely different.

Actually thinking about it now, roles were completely reversed. Utena, the young princess became a prince. Dios the Prince became Akio the Witch, as he seems to tamper with the nature of people. Lastly, Anthy the Witch seemingly changes into the one who needs to be saved; The Princess.

It does send the message that people are not useful to each other, but their roles. There is, however, something more. Otherwise these personal revolutions would not exist. There are so  many x-factors that it might be hard to single out, though the ones I'm thinking about are mostly about feelings of some sort. Anger, jealousy, empathy, joy, love. Yet, how many of those are based on societal roles anyway?

I knew someone who said that love was a social construct. I always countered that the expression of love is a social construct, but as humans we will feel emotions inevitably. How we deal with them, or how they are provoked, depends entirely on our conditioned interpretation of the world around us.

In SKU we don't get to see many adults. We don't know what is appropriate and what is not in the character's world. All we can glean are the situations and subtle (also not so subtle) nuances of the individual.

...you know, I haven't put my thinking cap on in a looooong time...

Forgive you?  So does that mean you don't want me to chase you around with a torch and pitchfork? 
Damn.  I was looking forward to a good old-fashioned riot and windmill burnin', but I guess I'll forgive ya.  Hee!

Oh yeah, I'm talking about fairy tale princes too, but since Dios seems to be the perfect fairy tale prince that represents all others, I think this goes for him.  Why save only the pretty special girls and leave so many unsaved?  True, they never quite say it, but I think it's implied that there has been nobody to save Wakaba, Shiori, and the rest of the unexceptional ones, so they try to save themselves.  I guess the problem pops up when they do this in the wrong way and end up wearing black roses and shaking swords.  Mistakes, learning from them, growing up, all that jazz...

Dios almost had it right with Utena.  He didn't save her so much as he gave her the desire to save.  It seems like where he messed up was planting this idea in her head that she should save someone else instead of herself. Of course, I don't know if I can blame that on him or on the idea that saving other people is what princes do.      Condition people to expect things like this, then snatch it away; next thing you know you've got a dead prince, a crazy witch, an unhappy mob, and frickin' swords flying out of the sky.  And that's no fun for anyone.

You're right about misguided ideas.  I'm all for redefining what makes a prince a prince.  After all, the prince saves the day, but he doesn't quite teach self-reliance.  Get lost in the woods and he may find you, he may even fight a dragon or a witch if you're special enough, but if you had taken a map or a compass you wouldn't have gotten lost in the first place.   But that's one of the things that makes this series fun as hell.

sissyhiyah wrote:

Damn.  I was looking forward to a good old-fashioned riot and windmill burnin', but I guess I'll forgive ya.  Hee!

Yeehaw, I'll get to go on creatin' monsters another day! 

Dios almost had it right with Utena.  He didn't save her so much as he gave her the desire to save.  It seems like where he messed up was planting this idea in her head that she should save someone else instead of herself. Of course, I don't know if I can blame that on him or on the idea that saving other people is what princes do.      Condition people to expect things like this, then snatch it away; next thing you know you've got a dead prince, a crazy witch, an unhappy mob, and frickin' swords flying out of the sky.  And that's no fun for anyone.

Yeah, dead on!  That expectation that someone else will save you, the expectation Dios fed, is the one that does so much harm.  There are a lot of other good anime that explore this idea too; Now and Then, Here and There leaps to mind.  Here's the thing, though...

True, they never quite say it, but I think it's implied that there has been nobody to save Wakaba, Shiori, and the rest of the unexceptional ones, so they try to save themselves.  I guess the problem pops up when they do this in the wrong way and end up wearing black roses and shaking swords.  Mistakes, learning from them, growing up, all that jazz...

These poor "unexceptional" people in the Black Rose arc -- all girls plus Tsuwabuki, which is interesting -- all live in expectation of princes.  Wakaba frames it in those terms explicitly.  Keiko's tagline is "Look only at me!"  They all expect someone else to come in and validate them.  If it's true that there's been no one to save them, the problem is not that the princes of the world aren't working hard enough, but that these characters (whom I love one and all) are making princesses -- and then witches -- out of themselves.  Criticizing Dios for not saving the less special characters is beside the point!  That's a little like criticizing a billionaire for leaving his whole fortune to his favorite son and not giving anything to the red-headed stepchild.  Yeah, it's a little callous, but no one should feel entitled to inherit a fortune, or be saved by a prince.  And as you point out, being saved by princes doesn't particularly teach self-reliance anyway.

Android raptor wrote:

A friend and I have the idea/hypothesis that the Dios that appeared before Utena was actually a projection Anthy was doing in an attempt to find someone to help her, since judging by Black Rose flashbacks there's a good chance Dios had long since become Akio at that point. And Anthy has magic and all, so she could do such a thing if she wanted methinks.

She probably could!  But at the beginning of the show it doesn't seem like Anthy has a lot of hope for being saved or helped; certainly she doesn't have any special fondness for Utena until the end of the first arc.  I lean more towards the conspiracy-theory-type feeling that it was Akio himself who found Utena in the coffin.  He took on his mock-prince persona and told baby Utena the witch story in order to set in motion the chain of events that led Utena to Ohtori; even then, he was laying the groundwork for the set of duels in the show.  He and Anthy have to do this every once in a while to keep the Ohtori Academy perpetual motion machine running.  Personally, I think he caused the car crash that killed Utena's parents, but I have absolutely no evidence to back that one up. 

RhythmFusion wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

Personally, I think he caused the car crash that killed Utena's parents, but I have absolutely no evidence to back that one up. 

I don't know about that, mass manipulation is one thing, but premeditated murder? Watching the series, we can fathom that Akio probably cares very little for what happens to anyone involved in his game as long as he gets what he wants out of it, but somehow I doubt he'd go that far.

Well...

Maybe Akio wouldn't have the balls to do it, but what about the wicked witch?  I think Akio has far less desire to control the story as his female half.  It's the witch or the princess that serves as the catalyst for all the tales, isn't it?  The prince is just the prince.  He's a sword or a set of hyper-caffeinated lips.  Poor Utena never seemed to figure that out until the end, and I'm beginning to believe that Akio didn't see it either.  Anthy, just like the princess locked in a tower or the one condemned to sleep for eternity, seemed to have a lot more to gain by forcing these events.  Sure, Akio is a selfish prick, but so is Anthy.  And Utena.  And the ever-so-cheerful mob. 

I'm beginning to think the only noble character in this series is Chu-Chu. 

It sure as hell isn't the rapist frog.  That's the amphibian version of Akio.

Yep.  You're totally right.