Well. you are entitled to ship who you ship.  So I have no beef with that.  I really don't see the appeal myself though.  Utena/Touga would seem to be really boring to me. 

Beyond that, Touga is a wannabe prince in a sense, and Utena wanting to be a prince herself would make them incompatible in certain ways, especially after she realized the truth about her memories about "the prince" later on.  This is also the reason he got "dumped" in the movie, where he held more pure princely qualities as opposed to the corrupted anime version.  Her have a prince was something from her childhood, which was pretty much over-rided by her entering adolescence and realizing she likes chicks (specifically Anthy).  Tv-series Utena is a lot more bi though, I will concede.

Utena didn't go for him in the tv series, though, because a main girl going for that kind of guy would be too obvious, and Ikuhara wanted to turn cliched shoujo on it's head.  Saito probably not so much, so you get the more obvious reactions from the main girl.

Also as for Ikuhara steering away from Saito's manga, I'm not really convinced the anime is based on the manga.  I think they both come from some series Bible that be-papa's made together.  The anime, manga, and movie are all different interpretations of that source material.  At least, that would be my best guess.

But yeah over all the idea of this coupling is already giving me snores.  Touga/Saionji and Touga/Nanami I think are much more interesting.

Last edited by J-Syxx (01-09-2008 01:27:32 AM)

I also think that every one of the forum member relates to a specific chara and likes another one as a love interest. This is just my identification of the chara. I relate to Utena and I like Touga. Which is why I like the match. But like you said, there are more interesting couples.

J-Syxx wrote:

Utena didn't go for him in the tv series, though, because a main girl going for that kind of guy would be too obvious, and Ikuhara wanted to turn cliched shoujo on it's head.  Saito probably not so much, so you get the more obvious reactions from the main girl.

That is quite a statement. I appreciate Ikuhara doing it, too, because the whole show is based on the perception of tumultuous relationships. TougaxUtena wouldn't have been as interesting if they had become an item. I like the instability of the relationship, I like it when I can fantasize a relationship in my head. It's possibilities, it's romance. This is what really draws me to them.

Last edited by Persephone (01-09-2008 03:20:18 AM)

^ heh. It's true - you can have pink and purple, but not pink and red.

On that note, since I percieve SKU as having fairly strong feminist themes, it would be a bit less 'revolutionary' if Utena allowed herself to be coveted by one of the least honorable male characters in the series. Although she does have a positive influence on him, in a way(dude, he still tries to molest his sister. That guy is shameless.), I think a lot of viewers would have lost respect for Utena had she caved to his charms.

Both Akio and Touga are sort of trials for Utena - once she's fought the obvious sexuality of Touga, she is forced to contend with the mature and (somewhat)more subtle sexual manipulation of Akio. (I'm going to be attacked for this one, so I'll try to clarify - although we know Akio is a horrible and sexy manwhore, unlike Touga he never reveals his arrogance or promiscuity in full view for Utena to see. Being engaged isn't the same as entertaining flocks of women, and it's only after Utena has fallen for Akio that she discovers the the key to Anthy's and the Chairman's family love).

I personally love the UtenaxAnthy pairing, but I also think it's great how Utena becomes everyone's 'ideal women' at the end of the series. It's a reward for her perseverance, and a great touch to the series. Also, Anthy is pretty much the dark side of Utena, so pairing the two together just makes an adorable couple.

(plus, TougaxSaionji, anyone? We have to keep that option open.)

Last edited by Adrasteia (01-09-2008 05:39:14 AM)

Particularly after her disillusionment about princes, I think there's little chance of driven, self-respecting Utena consenting to be with chauvinistic, self-absorbed Touga.  If you gave him another ten years, Touga might become worthy of her, but he'd have to continue down the path we see him just discovering at the end of the series -- the path that leads him to risk his own life and limb to save Utena from Akio.  His choice to duel her rather than be straight with her about what he knows is misguided and only further alienates Utena, but his heart is in the right place; the problem is that he doesn't really understand that Utena has to make her own mistakes, and Utena doesn't understand that this time he isn't just trying to seize power for himself.  Give him time and surround him with strong women, and there is hope for him.  (This is one reason I like him so much; he's a character who starts out irredeemable, and ends up redeemable but unredeemed.)

Persephone wrote:

I also think that every one of the forum member relates to a specific chara and likes another one as a love interest. This is just my identification of the chara.

Maybe so.  There's no one good enough for my Utena, unless it's Wakaba!    Nevertheless, I just can't see TougaxUtena... yet.

Rhyaniwyn, you said everything I could not say. That is almost exactly how I feel about their physical relationship.

Would that be before or after she borrows his pants(hers were in the wash), breaks a Ming vase, and uses the last of his $28 shampoo?

I think sex between them would be really awkward somehow. 

Anyone fans of Buffy, when Cordillia and Wesley kissed?  I'm picturing that.

After their heart-to-heart in the Arena, imagine if Touga had chosen to throw in with Utena, tell her what he knew, and vow to help her--much like he did in the manga.  It's not OUT of character, it's just a bigger step.  Then imagine Utena had responded to his revelations with denial and to his profession of respect with suspicion and treated his desire to help with scorn.  Also in character, and somewhat understandable.  Then Touga would likely have duelled her for the same reasons...but his confession of affection would probably be viewed with a bit more sympathy.  In my opinion, that would have been just as legitimate and likely a course of events.

But Touga in the anime just doesn't get quite to that point.  I think his anime incarnation is more cynical than his manga version--making him a lot less likely to take chances like that.  Heck, even Touga realizes that part of his attraction to Utena is her relative unattainability.  (I feel that's evidenced by his conversations with Saionji about whether or not he's in love with Utena; he is, sorta, but he knows it's not pure love...it's influenced by un-admirable motives.  But since I don't believe in pure love, and I doubt Touga does either, I feel like it's as real a love as any.  As long as he's honest with himself.)

I've always seen them as a potential pair.  They'd compete for dominance, they'd fight over trivialities.  But it'd be passionate, I think.

Yeah...I just don't see it in the series--not at any time during the series or immediately after.  But their status as potential lovers is supported by the fact that they are, in some way or another, in both the movie and the manga.   In all 3 versions Utena is hostile toward Touga because she is attracted to him and (a) feels abandoned (b) is disgusted by his behavior (c) doesn't want him treating her like all the other girls (d) doesn't trust his motives.  And in all of the versions, there's something that interferes (aside from Anthy).  In the manga, Touga is Utena's love and idealized Prince, but he's dead and she has to move on and become her own person without him.  Something she does well.  In the manga, Utena "dies" because she is such a pure soul and she is to Touga what he is to her in the movie, in some ways.  In the series, they have an attraction fraught with misunderstandings and unwillingness to compromise.  But many elements of their personalities--and their Prince issues--echo each other, so they maintain a connection.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

After their heart-to-heart in the Arena, imagine if Touga had chosen to throw in with Utena, tell her what he knew, and vow to help her--much like he did in the manga.  It's not OUT of character, it's just a bigger step.  Then imagine Utena had responded to his revelations with denial and to his profession of respect with suspicion and treated his desire to help with scorn.  Also in character, and somewhat understandable.  Then Touga would likely have duelled her for the same reasons...but his confession of affection would probably be viewed with a bit more sympathy.  In my opinion, that would have been just as legitimate and likely a course of events.

But Touga in the anime just doesn't get quite to that point.  I think his anime incarnation is more cynical than his manga version--making him a lot less likely to take chances like that.  Heck, even Touga realizes that part of his attraction to Utena is her relative unattainability.  (I feel that's evidenced by his conversations with Saionji about whether or not he's in love with Utena; he is, sorta, but he knows it's not pure love...it's influenced by un-admirable motives.  But since I don't believe in pure love, and I doubt Touga does either, I feel like it's as real a love as any.  As long as he's honest with himself.)

I've always seen them as a potential pair.  They'd compete for dominance, they'd fight over trivialities.  But it'd be passionate, I think.

Yeah...I just don't see it in the series--not at any time during the series or immediately after.  But their status as potential lovers is supported by the fact that they are, in some way or another, in both the movie and the manga.   In all 3 versions Utena is hostile toward Touga because she is attracted to him and (a) feels abandoned (b) is disgusted by his behavior (c) doesn't want him treating her like all the other girls (d) doesn't trust his motives.  And in all of the versions, there's something that interferes (aside from Anthy).  In the manga, Touga is Utena's love and idealized Prince, but he's dead and she has to move on and become her own person without him.  Something she does well.  In the manga, Utena "dies" because she is such a pure soul and she is to Touga what he is to her in the movie, in some ways.  In the series, they have an attraction fraught with misunderstandings and unwillingness to compromise.  But many elements of their personalities--and their Prince issues--echo each other, so they maintain a connection.

That could be said of many other character relationships within the utena series, of course the only one that makes sense is the UtenaxAnthy. Hey, and juri was in love with touga in the manga, I don't believe the locket appeared until the anime.  GAH!

The manga made it clear that Akio and Anthy were brother and sister. (Both of them said so.) No incest is mentioned although there are a couple of hints.

Manga Touga realized before the end that he had been deceived and found the courage to admit it and tried unsuccessfully to open Utena's eyes. Anime Touga could not quite find enough courage to admit he was in way over his head and did not really try to tell Utena what she was up against because he did not want to admit out loud what a gullible fool he had been.

Last edited by brian (01-11-2008 08:28:30 PM)