0: The Fool = Utena

But they have Chu-Chu...
While this is not a bad choice, I believe there's nobody better than Utena to fit that card.

Generally I like the SKU Tarot deck, but I'd redo some cards. Especially The Fool. I've had this in my drawing list for a long time, so I hope I'll eventually get it done too. And I should also mention I don't know much about tarot but it's certainly very interesting.

I think I have to dig into the tarot meanings more to see which cards should be remade.

Or somebody just can't draw unusual hand angles.

tohubohu wrote:

As an aside, I've got Major Arcana for an Ohtori (as opposed to Utena) Tarot on my website (concept and text by Bara no hitomi, screencaps and card art by Arkady): http://www.broomstick.org/utena/tarot.html

We keep meaning to work on the minor arcana, and I was thinking about getting a friend who does Flash to do a Tarot program for the site at some point, but I don't know that it's ever going to happen at this point, alas.

I like your style, tohubohu! The work on the Major Arcana is absolutely awesome, as is your Page/Duellist/Prince idea for the Minor Arcana. I can't wait to see the rest of the cards...if this deck ever gets sold, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!

Not mine!  Not mine!  I just host it!  Thank you for all the compliments, though -- I will pass along to the author!

The Fool represents somebody who is under the wrong impression.  In the original card, there is a young man walking happily with a dog.  The sun shines & all seems perfect.  But, right before his feet is the edge of a cliff.

But under some esoteric interpretations, the Fool represents an enlightened individual who lives without fear of mortality.
You could propably do a doctoral thesis about the variations and interpretations of tarot...

tohubohu wrote:

As an aside, there is a set of Major Arcana for an Ohtori (as opposed to Utena) Tarot on my website (concept and text by Bara no hitomi, screencaps and card art by Arkady): http://www.broomstick.org/utena/tarot.html

Oh, I remember reading this quite a while ago when I was doing research on Tarot. I loved the interpretations!

My interpretation of The Fool has always been a mishmash of the two presented for Utena and Mikage, context-related. They're both characters inflicted with ignorance of the situation, but in one case (Mikage's), the fool actually falls into the goarge, and in the other (Utena's), the fool miraculously misses the peril. It's not the end result that matters, it's the state of the person walking right into danger. Utena had always made me think of the saying "Fools do the impossible because they do not know what is impossible". It seems as though Mikage failed as soon as he realized he had been led into a trap, and Utena refused to STOP being a fool. I think THAT is a huge contributer to her ability to open the Rose Gate, etc.

Recall when Juri was telling Miki the virtue of his fencing was its "innocent, untrained" quality? It's unpredictable and unrestrained by "what is possible" or formulatic alogrithms. That is the power of the fool. And the plague of the fool is, of course, ignorance.

I've never thought that Tarot cards are so specific they only fit one manifestation of an archetype. I myself read Tarot, as may be obvious, and I use a CLAMP deck from X. The Major Arcana actually make sense, but since the cards are Hong Kong counterfeits, the Minor Arcana have random pictures slapped on them that often have absolutely nothing to do with the classical interpretation of the cards. I mentally set the stage, so to speak, to interpret classical meanings *and* pictures, if needed. It's difficult to describe.

junior wrote:

My pet peeve regarding Utena Tarot decks is Utena absolutely has to be the fool, I mean, they say she's the fool in episode 37!

"
Touga:  Do you want to meet your Prince that badly?
Utena:  That's not all.
Saionji:  Then, for what?
Touga:  Is it for Himemiya?
Touga:  He who believes friendship exists is a fool.
Utena:  Didn't you know? I am a fool.
Anthy:  "The time is ripe. The time to pass through the Rose Gate,
Anthy:  when the path to the Castle is opened,
Anthy:  and you shall receive the Power to Revolutionize the World.
Anthy:  And there, we shall meet again.
Anthy:  From your Prince."
Anthy:  Utena-sama. You can still turn back.
Utena:  Let's go.
"

They say Utena is a fool right before she goes on her journey of enlightenment (or 'apocalypse') at the end of the series, I think it may very well be an intentional Tarot reference on the part of the creators, because the fool is used to symbolize the beginning of a journey, and a naive fearlessness when approaching an unknown situation!

You have a very good point.  Very very good point.

Of course, one must also consider the aesthetic placing of the characters.  Exactly what will she be walking off of?

I have considered this & found that it does make much better sense to use Mikage, for he will be holding a rose & a sword while walking in the Nemuro hall basement into a pit of flames.  Truely, it does make sense for this card, & there are just so many other places that Utena would be perfect for & so very few that Mikage would be so perfect for.

Giovanna wrote:

hyacinth_black wrote:

Of course, one must also consider the aesthetic placing of the characters.  Exactly what will she be walking off of?

Off the edge of the duel arena, of course.

For some reason I just thought it'd be neat to contrast her stepping off the ledge contrasted to Akio who stands off it and just floats. I know that has nothing to do with tarot but it sounded like a neat commentary on the story.

Problem with her stepping off the arena is that there is kind of... a wall around it...

Maybe her stepping off the edgy thingy from the last episodes/the place where she first saw Anthy.

Lightice wrote:

hyacinth_black wrote:

Problem with her stepping off the arena is that there is kind of... a wall around it...

Didn't prevent Akio from jumping off it and Utena following him. The wall's there only if you think about it...or something.

But... Utena can't be jumping off of it...

Anyways... I've examined the cards now for quite a while & I have decided that THOUGH Utena would be well suited for The Fool, I would rather have her as The Magician, for there are no other characters better suited to that particular card.

Here is proof!

Tarot Card Meanings from free-tarot-reading.net wrote:

The Magician

positive associations with this tarot card: action, power, originality, confidence, individuality, willpower, new beginnings, potential

negative associations with this tarot card: trickery, deception, lack of self-confidence, indecision, abuse of power

The Magician is an excellent omen symbolizing new opportunities, the importance of new enterprise and that you will have the willpower and initiative to succeed in whatever you do

the mercurial nature of The Magician means that you will be able to think on your feet and bluff your way through any difficulties

negatively this card represents trickery or deception and is a warning to be careful of whom you place your trust in

another negative aspect of The Magician is that it may suggest that you are lacking in self-confidence and being indecisive

There aren't any other characters one could relate to that card.  Seriously.

I'm going to go with Mikage as The Fool.

A bit later I'm going to post a list of the major arcana & give who I think would make the best character for that card along with some explanations.

satyreyes wrote:

Mind you, Mikage is not a great fit as Death either.  Death in the Tarot has the flavor of an exit that is an entrance to somewhere else -- an opportunity for rebirth.  Mikage is okay in this role.  He offers a sort of rebirth to the visitors to his seminar; they symbolically die when they accept the black rose, emerging from Nemuro Memorial Hall changed.   But this "rebirth" is more negative and artificial than the Tarot's Death usually feels.

Actually, now that you mention it I think Mikage would suit that discription. It is through his own leaving from Ohtori that he gets a second chance. Well that's how I interpreted it anyway. It seemed to me that in the end, he was able to leave Ohtori and his past self behind.

hyacinth_black wrote:

Now listen, I am going to have Mikage as the Fool, okay?  The biggest point of the fool is that it is the beginning/ending of a journey in which the Fool is masked to certain truths.  This fits Mikage perfectly!

It fits Utena perfectly too... and Utena matches more of the Fool's other connotations   But if you want Mikage, I'm not going to stop you.  Dios as Death is okay, though I actually prefer him as the Hanged Man, the original set's choice.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Who do you think would fit the Hanged man? At Utena_hush on LJ, we get tarot themes sometimes, and we had that theme recently. I made an icon of Tatsuya.. But I forgot why I thought he fit. I suppose it's because of how he went to Utena to see what Wakaba wanted, and then later went to Mikage after Wakaba "dumped" him. It just seemed like he was trying to see things from different point of views. I've seen a lot of people use Ruka, too, though, but I'm not sure how he fits, either. Hmm.

Well, the Hanged Man has to do with a sort of stasis.  He is literally suspended.  It's not necessarily an unpleasant stasis -- traditionally, the Hanged Man is painted with a smile on his face, and if you turn him upside down he looks like he's dancing -- but it can be.  In a sense, Ohtori Academy itself is the best Hanged Man icon in the show.  A few other candidates:

Dios.  His depiction in Episode 13 very much feels like somewhere the Hanged Man would find himself, and the reference to him as "sleeping" fits.  It works especially well if you interpret his riding off into the distance in episode 39 as a sort of rebirth or release.  You're right that the Hanged Man also has to do with turning things over in your mind until you reach resolution/revolution and can proceed -- exactly what the spirit of Dios does in Utena.

Anthy.  She is as suspended as anyone in the series -- literally, in episode 39.  The problem is that she is portrayed as imprisoned against her will.  Occasionally the Hanged Man's stasis can be involuntary, but if the Hanged Man is imprisoned he spends the time preparing himself for a new life (note that the card immediately after the Hanged Man in the Major Arcana is Death).  Anthy doesn't spend her time this way, instead retreating inside herself.

Touga in the Black Rose Saga.  This guy is a really good study in what it means to be the Hanged Man, and is probably the strongest candidate I've listed, but I'd be uncomfortable sticking just one season's version of him on a card.

I don't like Ruka here, simply because his frenzied activity is unbecoming the Hanged Man.  Tatsuya is better; he doesn't really succeed in changing anything in his episode, so he remains in stasis, and between his trips to Utena, Wakaba, and Mikage he certainly does accumulate different ways of thinking about his relationships and himself.  But he doesn't mean to remain in stasis or gather new points of view.  In fact, he tries to break out of that stasis, and his new understanding of his situation's complexity comes in spite of his best efforts to create something simple and clean.

Last edited by satyreyes (03-29-2007 03:06:53 PM)