That's a pretty harsh rebuttal. I think Perfect Blue could definitely be said to be tonally similar, in that both Mima and Utena are forced to confront how cynical and ugly the world can be, and how they struggle maintain their self-identities in the face of that.

Something else that might seem like a stretch to some people is the plot of Final Fantasy Tactics. Specifically the characters of Delita and Ramza, who are both shown graphically just how merciless their society is, but then take very different paths. Delita ironically goes on to become just the very same type of cynical monster, abusing the system and trampling others for his own goals.

    You and I are the same... Miserable people forced to live false lives.
    Always being used by someone... Try hard and you'll be rewarded they say.
    Lies... Only these close to the top are rewarded without trying. It's the
    way of the world. Most people have to act the roles given to them...
    Then again, most of them haven't even noticed they're even acting.
    No way I'd do that. I won't be used. I'll be the one using!
    Those who used me must pay for what they've done!

Meanwhile, Ramza manages to hold onto his ideals throughout the game, despite the whole world showing him its fangs at every turn.

I'm sure there are some more good examples but I'll have to think on it a bit.

Last edited by Aelanie (06-05-2013 06:38:13 PM)

I have to say I agree more with Florence's take.

There are actually many shows that feature protagonists being confronted with how cynical and ugly the world can be, and how they struggle maintain their self-identities in the face of that(死化妆师, 「ライフ」すえのぶけいこ, etc).  If the rest of the messages are largely different, I don't see how two shows can be said to have similar themes.

Also, most Japanese TV dramas, especially those with a serious edge, display masses as being source of tension - societal pressure is simply something that the average Japanese are very familiar with (and are deathly afraid of).

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (06-06-2013 09:33:11 PM)

zevrem wrote:

Maybe I just have to watch more TV.

If you do, look out for TV Jdramas like Mother, Life, アイシテル～海容, etc, as they all feature characters who fell out of the socially accepted norms struggling to survive against the prying, judging masses surrounding them.

Which itself seems like a ripoff of Paprika, also by Satoshi Kon, but is really a film version of Phillip K Dick's Ubik.

Home sick with a cold, so I'm watching Dario Argento's The Three Mothers trilogy (Suspiria, Inferno, and Mother of Tears) and in particular the set pieces, the set design and use, reminds me so strongly of the use of set-as-prop in Utena. They have a similar use of color to dramatize, and exaggeration in scale.

Suspiria, because there's no way to make that movie with actual little girls, cast slightly older and then they built the sets larger, to reduce the students to child-size. Doorknobs too high, towering hallways.

Inferno faces a similar problem to the rose motif in SKU, of how to layer scenes that are dominated by reds without just being awash in red.

(Of course, they also share queerness, uncertain youth, incestual tones, attraction to victims, attraction to victimizers, ancient evils running schools, gender politics, generational shifts, weird things that happen in the lost time one spends in elevators, the politics of witches, and fun with shadows that reveal things.)

Anyone seen Guy Maddin's Twilight of the Ice Nymphs?  It's one of the few-ish things without a huge YouTube presence, but here's a scene wherein our asshat hero bitches out the antagonist-ish couple, who give me serious Anthy/Akio vibes.

Thematically, well, it's not got a whole lot to do with adolescence, but there is the whole concept of trying to "rescue" someone from a relationship where it's not clear how much they are complicit and how much they are controlled.  Also there is lots of sex.  Not so much in a porny way, but in terms of "how do I negotiate the contradictions between my own desires, the desires of others, and my social role."

Not to mention that it looks like it was made on acid and all the characters are stark raving mad, as is the world itself.

I think my favorite part has got to be the beginning, where Douchy McProtagonist turns up in a random lady's bedroom, on a boat, for no well-explained reason, and she looks at his wrists, which are marked from having been chained up in prison, and says, "Did the night hold you down by the wrists?"  I don't even know why, I just love that line.

Put that way, I know it's true, and yet my mind still rebels because I didn't enjoy Labyrinth and have been told for like 15 years now that Akio = Jareth. I'm very petty.

Innocence, which I believe I heard about right here on IRG. It's about a bizarre French boarding school where girls literally come out of coffins, and then proceed in various ways to lose their innocence, well meant or not, internally or not, and it goes into particular detail where it concerns the innocence and adult takes, the innocence other children take, and the innocence you cast off of your own will. Yasha and I didn't immediately fall in love with the movie. It seemed like it tried too hard at times to be deep, and was quite slow, but it was definitely worth the watch for the approach it took to the material.

Giovanna wrote:

Put that way, I know it's true, and yet my mind still rebels because I didn't enjoy Labyrinth and have been told for like 15 years now that Akio = Jareth. I'm very petty.

I liked Labyrinth but Jareth didn't do it for me.

Princess Tutu does have some similarities yeah. This time with a guy in the passive role. I liked the show a lot.

There's some mileage in thinking of The Worst Witch as the inversion of Utena. Most "special young girl" stories are going to go in some direction that parallels or contrasts to SKU, though. And most "young special boy" ones, too, really.

We should have a contest. Just lay something out, any movie on this green Earth, and see who can nail down a really good connection.

What do SKU and El Mariachi have in common? Or... El Muerto?

Does Utena really critique youth-centered culture? There's, like, one adult character in the whole show. Who is the villain.

Perfect Blue I can totally understand, because that movie is actually set in modern Japan and clearly shows the negative effects of societal pressure on the main character's mental state. But Ohtori Academy feels so separate from society at large. I don't get the sense that outside pressure to remain youthful, or idealization of youth itself, is the source of everybody's psychological hangups. The show strikes me as much more critical of adults who exploit youthful naivety to their own ends.

Perfect Blue I can totally understand, because that movie is actually set in modern Japan and clearly shows the negative effects of societal pressure on the main character's mental state.

Also, Mima goes on stage in a little girl costume and all her fans are grown men, symbolizing the infantilism of the culture that she's a part of. The stalker's frustration stems from Mima's desire to move into more "mature" roles.

But Ohtori Academy feels so separate from society at large. I don't get the sense that outside pressure to remain youthful, or idealization of youth itself, is the source of everybody's psychological hangups. The show strikes me as much more critical of adults who exploit youthful naivety to their own ends.

The duelist all have their own "coffins" representing their attachment to some aspect of childhood. Akio is obsessed with becoming more like his adolescent self.

The duelist all have their own "coffins" representing their attachment to some aspect of childhood. Akio is obsessed with becoming more like his adolescent self.

You're definitely right about this, it's just the social criticism that's missing, in my opinion. Saionji doesn't want eternity because a youth-obsessed society is telling him "eternal youth is awesome," he wants it because he's afraid of death and/or he wants his relationship with Touga to be more like it was when they were kids. All the duelists strike me as being motivated either internally, or by a close relationship with a particular character, not by social pressure to act younger.

So while Utena might provide some insight into Japan's cultural fixation on adolescence, I don't really think it's critical of that. It's definitely critical of other aspects of Japanese culture, like rigid gender roles, no doubt, but I personally don't see Utena as a work that critically engages with the cult of adolescence in the same way as a movie like Perfect Blue.

Actually now I'm rethinking what I just wrote. You might be able to analyze Anthy from this perspective, since she actually is motivated to stay in her coffin by a fear of the outside world. But she also strikes me as, in many ways, being more "grown up" than the other characters. I don't know, I've never really thought about whether I would consider Anthy a child or an adult; like everyone in the show, she's probably a mixture of both. It's an interesting angle to consider nonetheless.

To a phonenix, a 'coffin' is it's 'cradle', and vice versa. It is a creature that stagnates, endlessly repeating the same life cycle over and over again in the same form, never advancing.

Thanks to you, I just now made the connection between the idea of the phoenix reborn from its own ashes, and the hundred duelists who burned to death only to be "reborn" later in the Black Rose Arc, their sacrifice equally meaningless the second time around. Whoaaa.