Yasha wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

This does depend on Akio speaking about Anthy's version of Mamiya as "the same way you haven't" rather then, for example, Anthy herself.

I'm trying to figure out how it changes your position if he is referring to Anthy there. You can argue that technically, Anthy doesn't exist there either-- she exists in her coffin, and what we see is a projection of her self. If this is the case, Mikage enters that double-state of being-and-not-being, affecting things without truly being present, his 'self' at Ohtori while the rest of him resides elsewhere-- very probably in one of those hundred coffins.

Because in that case it doesn't work as an explanation for why no one remembers Mikage. At least, not the way I'm looking at it. While Akio could readily be referring to Anthy, in that case it doesn't support why Mikage's actions during the Black Rose arc don't have lasting repercussions, while Anthy's actions throughout the series do. When Anthy leaves at the end of the series, it could well have the same (and on a grander scale) impact on Ohtori. (Though since she's likely at least half-powering Ohtori's mojo to start with, chances are it wouldn't work that way. But I digress.) As of the Black Rose saga's end, Anthy or her projection is still at Ohtori; what stops existing is the Mamiya facade.

Arguably Akio's statement can apply to everyone at Ohtori, he believes Utena suffers a similar fate to Mikage (or Nemuro) at the end of the series. Saionji states earlier that "We're all still in our coffins." There's probably a way to work this into the child->adolescent->adult theme of the show, but I can't grasp it at the moment.

Clarice wrote:

...oh crap, he's Schrodinger's cat?

I thought the same thing! It seems pretty fitting for him, especially given his duality.

Yasha wrote:

The forgetty trick did happen at the end of the series, or at least that's how some people interpret the comments about Utena. Look at it this way for a moment-- you have these pivotal characters, Mikage, Utena, and Anthy, and the three of them each end up leaving Ohtori somehow. In two of these cases, the students forget most of their interactions with the pivotal character, and in the third, we don't know what happens because we don't see it.

There is a definite difference between Utena's departure and Mikage's though. (Likely because she was successful and he wasn't.) For Utena, people are shown, at an unspecified time after she's left, to be forgetting her; but most of the nameless/faceless students still vaguely remember her for the moment. Whereas, Mikage is completely forgotten by Miki on what appears to be the day of Mikage's 'graduation.' Miki is shown, in the first episode of the Black Rose Arc, speaking to Mikage inside Nemuro Memorial Hall. In the last episode he tellingly can't recall the name of the hall, let alone that it had ever been rebuilt, etc. We don't know for certain whether the Student Council, for example, remember Utena or not at the end of the series. Chances are...

Yasha wrote:

The parallel that's drawn to the students forgetting Utena is Juri's little speech about the boy who drowned saving her sister. This could apply in Mikage's case also; that the forgetting is not necessarily a function of Ohtori itself, but a function of the way people's minds in general work-- that events too traumatic, that hit the psyche too hard (whether in a helpful or harmful way) are repressed by the mind itself, leaving only the subconscious changes that have taken place. It worked for Utena later on in the series, so it can be argued that it works this way for Mikage as well. I kind of like that better than Akio or Anthy waving the magic forgetty wand over people...

Eventually everyone will forget Utena (unless they find her again.) And while a more natural explanation for Mikage sounds nice, it doesn't seem to be supported by the series.

Yasha wrote:

That leaves Akio's statement as something more like a backhanded laugh at Anthy rather than an explanation of why everyone's forgetting, but it's still very in character for him to take a poke at her that way. *resists urge to make jokes about how Akio usually takes pokes at Anthy* In fact, you could interpret this as just another of their veiled spats.

It's a really ambiguous statement, there's probably no end to the possible interpretations. Not to mention it coincides with one of the series' biggest What the Hell? moments of the Mamiya!Anthy reveal.

Yasha wrote:

I know. I wonder who cleans his litterbox

The act of checking will change the result!

satyreyes wrote:

Yes.  In addition, there's a clear, concrete reason why Mikage can't be at Ohtori: he's too old.  The Nemuro Memorial Hall incident happened quite a long time ago, yet Mikage looks not a day older than Nemuro (though he acts older).  Clearly he's been preserved -- as a ghost, a memory, an imaginary living body -- presumably by the reality machinations of Akio and Anthy.  His departure breaks the law because his presence did; he's past and present rolled into one, and snuffing out the one removes the other.

You know, I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but a few years back I wrote a fic along those lines -- that Nemuro was IN the real world, and Mikage was a projection of himself. Nemuro was in some sort of induced coma, and when Akio was through with him he shunted him back into his body...which after forty-odd years in a coma was pretty crap. Utena discovered him in a nursing home/hospice, and in general it was a very sad little story. But I liked the idea, cruel as it was. I must be a bad person.

And now I'm reminded of the Uncertainty Principle. I love how Mikage just brings out my inner physics geek.

Mishi wrote:

Which is why I brought up the question in the first place. Yeah, they all say they lost their memories... but did they REALLY?

Short of internal monologue, I'd guess it's impossible to tell.

Episode 15 wrote:

Miki:  What happened to that Black Rose signet?
Kozue:  What's a Rose Signet?
Miki:  Never mind.
Kozue:  Did I really collapse from anemia?
Miki:  Yeah.

How many people are lying in this exchange? We know Miki is for sure, because we're privy to the truth. Is Kozue pretending to have forgotten to avoid an uncomfortable situation and/or taking responsibility for her actions? Is she testing Miki to see if he'll stick to his lie? Did she really forget, but finds something amiss about Miki's explanation?

And does this apply to all the Black Rose Duellists? Can we be sure that they all forget, based on the pattern that some of them do/claim to? Speaking of Kozue, how much does she normally know about the duels? She and Miki live together, afterall. And she doesn't seem at all surprised by anything when she acts as Miki's bride. Shiori, by contrast, takes some coaxing (ok, very little) to become Ruka's bride.

Then, to add to the confusion; the entire Black Rose Arc ends with a seemingly school-wide mindwipe. Say Kozue actually did remember some of the events in Episode 15. Would she retain that knowledge after Mikage is purged from Ohtori?

Last edited by Ragnarok (07-07-2008 03:50:42 PM)