This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)
#1 | Back to Top10-23-2009 12:19:20 PM
- DerJakob
- Miki Molester
- From: Eugene, OR
- Registered: 10-21-2009
- Posts: 31
Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century
So, as I was recently reading Charles Baudelaire's poem "Le Cygne/The Swan" (great translations here: http://fleursdumal.org/poem/220) in which he references Andromache of Greek mythology multiple times. At one point in the poem he says:
Andromaque, des bras d'un grand époux tombée,
Vil bétail, sous la main du superbe Pyrrhus,
Andromache, base chattel, fallen from the embrace
Of a mighty husband into the hands of proud Pyrrhus,
I said "Pyrrhus" to myself and instantly thought of Wakaba's Black Rose duel and the lyrics of the song, which, as I remembered, were always translated with the name ピーラス (Piirasu) as "Paris." I now realize that this was wrong and I've been wondering whether or not anyone else had noticed this, whether or not anyone else had discussed the lyrics with this in mind, and now whether or not anyone wants to engage in a discussion! 
I'd also be more than open to a discussion concerning this poem and the duel theme (or entire episode/text/allusion in general). Thoughts? Feelings? (Also, should maybe these lyrics[ http://www.ohtori.nu/audiology/translat … entury.htm ] be corrected?)
Last edited by DerJakob (10-23-2009 12:23:40 PM)
"The tradition of the oppressed teaches us that the 'state of emergency' in which we live is not the exception but the rule. We must attain to a conception of history that is in keeping with this insight. Then we shall clearly realize that it is our task to bring about a real state of emergency, and this will improve our position in the struggle against Fascism."
-Walter Benjamin
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#2 | Back to Top10-23-2009 01:13:47 PM
- allegoriest
- Delicious Duellist
- From: Cloudcuckooland
- Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century
Well, I never really got to this song, but in all honestly, this one just makes the least sense. (Most of my reasons for not re-reading it is because I REALLY DO NOT WANT to read all the sources. I started but... No.)
I'm assuming they went with Paris because it has Troy in the song.
Though generally, I don't think they write either name as piirasu in Japanese. (They're like... Parisu and Pyurosu I think.) I don't think there is, officially at least, a piirasu.
I've always assumed Seazer did this one drunk in an overnight play cause... I've noticed he has a tendency to put these things off until the night before... I remember looking piirasu up, and nothing but Utena stuff had it. Seazer, you have something to say about this? You're usually really good at this. *sadness*
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#3 | Back to Top10-23-2009 02:25:36 PM
- Xu Yuan
- Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
- Registered: 10-19-2006
- Posts: 190
Re: Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century
I've looked on Wikipedia over who Pyrrhus was and the song in and of itself might be his triumph over King Priam, which is also during the Trojan War. The "Troy's castle tower, and the burning summit was rent asunder, with a thunderclap." line makes proper sense, because it was Pyrrhus who laid seige to Troy and actually succeeded in breaking through. The notes probably should be amended, since Pyrrhus (who indeed did kill an "aged king") is obviously the most fitting match (unless there's another piece of information I'm missing about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus
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#4 | Back to Top10-23-2009 03:21:33 PM
- Dallbun
- Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
- Registered: 10-19-2006
- Posts: 719
Re: Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century
I agree it's got to be Pyrrhus: often in Japanese, foreign names and words used to be spelled all kinds of ways before a standardization became widespread, so it's possible that this one might be floating around in old books but not on the internet.
Just did a little poking around, and came across a bulletin post where a Japanese Utena fan is discussing the matter, and lists ピラス and ピュリス, as well as Seazer's ピーラス, as alternate spellings for Pyrrhus. (Not that he provides sources or anything; I'm just saying that they seem to be in agreement about Seazer's intent.)
http://gimpo.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/chor … 390110/175
That person also points out that what's being referenced here is probably not the original Greek sources, but rather the play-within-a-play from Hamlet, which is about this incident. I'd kind of totally forgotten that.
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.2.2.html
Last edited by Dallbun (03-25-2011 10:27:07 PM)
Longer Translation Projects: Utena Sega Saturn Game, Utena Novel 2, Utena Novel 1, Movie Draft, Let's Plays
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#5 | Back to Top10-23-2009 04:44:59 PM
- DerJakob
- Miki Molester
- From: Eugene, OR
- Registered: 10-21-2009
- Posts: 31
Re: Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century
Word up. It's Pyrrhus or no one. Paris didn't kill Priam.
That aside, "Le Cygne/The Swan" is great alongside Seazer's duel theme, as they both mourn the falls of heroes and lament the woes of the wives traded in the process. Baudelaire takes this to another level in his sense that, as mankind progresses and forges its own unique paradise built from its wondrous knowledge, it erodes its own being and brings its own destruction. This sort of negative dialectic is fun and dangerous, but entirely fitting here. The closer Utena gets to her goal, the closer she gets to death. Or liberation. Depending on how you read it. 
"The tradition of the oppressed teaches us that the 'state of emergency' in which we live is not the exception but the rule. We must attain to a conception of history that is in keeping with this insight. Then we shall clearly realize that it is our task to bring about a real state of emergency, and this will improve our position in the struggle against Fascism."
-Walter Benjamin
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