I do find the JurixShiori thing very interesting.  Though there is one thing that confuses me and also has to do with Shiori's character.  It's Ruka.  When Shiori suddenly decided that she liked Ruka, did she do it because she wanted someone to love her (or at least make her feel good), or was it to touch Juri in some way? 

Many people think it's the latter; but that would either mean that Shiori wants to steal another boy from Juri, or she remembers what happened in the Black Rose saga and wants to hurt Juri by giving herself to another.  And there are scenes that hint to her reasons, but it just confuses me further: 1) She goes by Juri's locker when going for Ruka's, which could be nothing; but this is SKU, so it could mean something! This would really lean toward Shiori wanting to hurt Juri.  2) When Juri tries to tell Shiori not to go with Ruka because she doesn't trust him, Shiori says something like, "You really are dispicable, aren't you?" I took this as as Shiori saying, "You're already better than me at everything you do -- now you don't want me to be loved?"  It'd lean toward the idea that she wants attention/love.

Just to put my two-cents in... If Shiori is really just very attention-seeking, I can't really say that it's an admirable trait; but that would reflect the feelings of many adolescent high school girls -- as well as Wakaba an Keiko.  If Shiori isn't aiming at hurting Juri, than it would make her just like the other two Black Rose duelists.  Truthfully, I like Shiori as she is.  She's slightly like Anthy, and it makes her much more darker and interesting; as well as someone to relate to whenever I'm feeling like a total ass when it comes to being catty.  I can't help but like her.

There was a very good point made somewhere that I don't quite remember that Shiori, like many of the others on the show, mixes love and hate. She doesn't care if people love her or hate her - as long as it's about her. As long as they're thinking about her. In her insecure state, she believes that hate is a form of power she wields over another. Shiori is driven predominantly by her vulnerability. It's why she craves control and attention, and why she seeks to make an impact on others. Dollface brought up whether she regrets her actions or not. I believe she does, but not out of concern for Juri. It's her need to bring Juri back to her. To have the same sort of power over her as in the beginning. I have little doubt that if they managed to patch things up and their friendship began once more, it would fall into the previous pattern with Shiori seeking to dominate.

Love and hate basically are equivalent in the Utena realm, and its potent mixture explain the variety of twisted relationships. I doubt there is a single friendship/romance in the series that is entirely devoid of hatred. Yet I doubt there is a single rivalry or sworn enemyhood that is devoid of connection. The lines blur and that is what makes this series so unique. Juri and Shiori, I feel, are the embodiment of this dynamic seconded only by Utena and Anthy (Touga and Saionji coming in third).

dollface wrote:

I love that you bring this up, because many people disregard it, and it's a vital point in understanding Shiori. In my personal opinion, it's not really a debatable matter if she remembers or not-- there is evidence in the series to support the latter. If none of the others can remember what happened, why would she be any different? Hell, Utena fought in every single one of those duels, and even she can't remember.

A bit off-topic (or maybe not). Saionji was brought back to Ohtori during the Black Rose Saga and if others wouldn't remember it, how would they then explain his sudden return? Same goes with Shiori. Not to mention that Tsuwabuki's diary mentions the Cowbell™ incident, which is also something that happened during that arc. And Utena meeting Akio which resulted in her moving in with him right after the BRS. So I'm more inclined to believe they do remember, at least some of it. As to what is remembered and what isn't can be pure speculation, though Miki gives a good hint.

Oh! I think you're right! I seemed to have overlooked the fact that the Black Rose duelists forget about the incident the moment they wake up. So, my apologies. But then I would assume everything else is more-less in place. So a question... If we assume that logic as the correct one, would that mean Shiori knows who's picture is in the locked prior to the events and during Juri's second duel?

Based off of Shiori's behavior towards Juri during the Ruka episodes, I think she remembers everything from the BR Arc except Mikage and the Duel itself. I think the only thing the BR duelists forget are the circumstances with Mikage. She was given the locket prior to going to see him, thus she remembers. She may not remember confronting Juri about it later.

I think Wakaba, for example, remembers that Saionji stayed with her. I think Keiko remembers the crap Nanami pulled on her just before Touga's party. And so on.

Last edited by Ashnod (01-26-2008 11:55:37 AM)

Ah well, we disagree.

I guess the real question is what does she remember and what doesn't she remember. I'm certain she remembers the initial conversation that the two of them had after she returned. So she knows that Juri wasn't in love the boy. She also knows that Juri isn't too likely to speak with her as a result. What more, Juri remembers this conversation as well. Juri also knows that she threw the locket away once, and that it came back to her.

The fact that their initial reunion doesn't occur twice is proof of this. Miki remembers that Kozue pulled the sword from him, and Juri remembers Shiori pulling the sword from her. So at least until the end of the BR arc, most of these memories are intact.

Shiori:  Senpai, wait!
Shiori:  Please, you're the only one for me.
Shiori:  I have nobody but you.

She would have Juri, if she knew her feelings. Although Juri still would have shyed away from contact, I don't believe that Shiori wouldn't still persist, if only to see Juri squirm. All in all, lines can be interpretted many ways, but I think that this particular one wasn't meant as symbolism.

But Shiori doesn't want Juri. She knows how Juri feels, but either does not or will not reciprocate.

Shiori: No good! It's still no good!
Shiori: How could you look at me like that?!

Without calling Shiori homophobic, I think she's either shocked or appalled that Juri looked at her in that light, and not because it's simply because she didn't know this up to that point. Like you said, everything can be interpreted in many different ways, but if Shiori genuinely wanted Juri's affection, what happened in the Black Rose arc wouldn't have happened.

As far as simply needing to be needed, as Jellineck suggests, at this point getting that from Juri isn't possible. Juri made it clear in the BR arc that she wasn't interested in picking up where they left off before Shiori left. When Juri extends the olive branch after Ruka begins dating Shiori, Shiori rejects it and takes the opportunity to twist the knife in further.

Shiori:  Oh, Juri-san.
Shiori:  What's that expression for?
Juri:  Shiori, you shouldn't go out with him.
Shiori:  What?
Juri:  Your surprise is understandable. But, I'm worried about you.
Juri:  You mustn't trust that-
Shiori:  Juri-san.
Shiori:  You really suck, you know?

This is not the Shiori we see at the beginning of the BR arc, who was attempting to reconcile. She knows what she did, and she knows what power she holds or once held and how badly those words are going to sting. When Ruka splits, she can't go back to Juri. That bridge is burned, or if not burned, at least damaged to the point where she's afraid to cross it.

Also, after Shiori and Ruka split, Juri comes to see Shiori. She spits her words at Juri quite bitterly, another trait I don't think she would have possessed.

Shiori:  You came to laugh at me and feel all superior, didn't you?!

If Shiori knew that Juri loved her, and yet Shiori still had her heart broken, I don't think the term "superior" would have applied. However, if Juri had tryed to keep Shiori and Ruka apart because Juri had some sort of feelings toward Ruka, I think Shiori could easily come to this conclusion.

Hmm.

I think she would have. I don't think this is matter of Shiori feeling inferior to Juri, as she said in the BR arc, as much as it is she believes Juri is here to say "I told you so and you should have listened to me." Especially since she spat in Juri's face when Juri tried to warn her off.

As to whether Shiori thinks Juri still loves her, I think she knows Juri once loved her, but that time is over. She's done too much since then to believe Juri can still hold that kind of affection for her. We as the audience know differently, but it would be highly arrogant of anyone in that situation to think that after saying "you suck" with the contempt she did that Juri would still love her.

This is just me, of course, but I think Shiori wanting Ruka has nothing to do with Juri. I always thought it was because Ruka was hot, the new man on campus, and everyone wanted him.

The fact that Juri and Ruka know each other and have history is only important because Ruka is using Shiori to get to Juri. She's very much the victim in these two episodes, despite how badly she mucks up her friendship when Juri tries to make peace.

Episode 6? Nanami-Sama, Beware?

But I understand what you're saying. I didn't begin to think negatively of her until episode 17. Frankly, in the first arc, you didn't see enough of her to really have any taste one way or the other. At least, I don't think so. After watching the second arc time and time again, I grew fonder of Shiori, and now we've reached this unhealthy love.

EDIT: I posted in the wrong thread! Sorry!

Last edited by Adrasteia (02-29-2008 07:48:58 PM)

Just weighing in with my slightly disjointed thoughts on the Ruka/Juri/Shiori triangle (episodes 28 and 29 were two of my favourites).

To begin with, I don't think you can take anything Shiori says at face value (save her elevator ride and her conversation with Juri shortly afterwards) because she lies...or at least seriously twists the truth. She also never admits she regrets taking him from her, just that she wishes things could be "how they used to be." I always took her confession of regret to Juri in episode 17 as her trying to grind salt in the wound while still coming out smelling like a rose. Watch how upset she gets when Juri flat out tells her she never cared for that boy that way. She's manipulative as well, so I think a little of that upset is her getting butthurt about being wrong.

I think after her elevator ride, even if she had no memories at all of the whole BR arc, that she realizes deep down that she can NEVER beat Juri, no matter what, so she just settles for lashing out and hurting Juri as much as possible. So long as Juri is constantly thinking about Shiori and suffering for it, I think that makes her feel just a little bit better about herself. I think Shiori is also aware that Juri will never act on her feelings for her, at least, more than trying to protect her.

As for Ruka, I don't think it was another case of Shiori wanting to steal Juri's man as much as it was another method of keeping Juri's mind painfully on her. In her confession in episode 17, she says that stealing the boy from Juri made her feel even more pathetic than ever, and I don't think Shiori's enough of a masochist to try and do that again. When she's watching Ruka in 28, she's looking at Juri first. It's hard to dechiper Juri's expression, but it seems to be a mix of concentration, puzzlement, and perhaps a hint of irritation. Regardless, it's not really a look you'd give someone you were longing for. Then Shiori looks to Ruka while all the girls in the background scream about how wonderful he is and how much they want him. It seems to me that Shiori just sees him as a way to be special and to aggravate Juri more. Which of course succeeds beautifully, at least temporarily.

As for her memories, I think if she knew Juri was in love with her, she'd be a bit more like movie!Shiori, and would have "sheepishly" confessed to Ruka that there was this totally disgusting girl lesbing all over her, and as her boyfriend, can't he avenge her/protect her from that kind of humiliation? As a side note, boy was she barking up the wrong tree about that with Touga.

Perhaps she had a gnawing feeling somewhere in the back of her mind that she was the one in Juri's heart because she seemed to be aware just how much power she had over Juri after 17. As for her admittal that she "has no one else," I think that's just a lie intended to try and guilt Ruka into coming back to her (again, wrong tree).

Last edited by Ren (02-29-2008 08:46:10 PM)