Eh?  Tell me more about that!

What I mean is, Enokido says that the reason Touga accepted his abuse was to protect Nanami. He grows up to become Akio's lapdog(though he improves later). In the movie, Nanami doesn't exist, and Touga is considered a 'true prince'.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Ashnod wrote:
He's not Akio. He's not content to remain with mere comforts and pleasant company. Touga wants to make his mark on the world. He wants to change it and leave some part of himself upon it, so that people know he existed, he mattered. He wants, to borrow from the series, to revolutionize it. Significantly more than Saionji or Miki and just slightly more than Juri.

For now, I will put aside Akio's continual discontent with his current situation, which prompted him to (in a way) prostitute himself to Mrs. Ohtori to keep a steady footing in Ohtori - his stage for gainning back Dios' power so he can be all-encompassingly Godlike once again.

But for TV Touga to simply want to "make his mark on the world", isn't staying as the SC Pres., then getting into a top grade university by his stepfather's strings, then some big company CEO position afterwards, then ruling over some too-big-to-fail international business empire the way things logically work in the world? 

The Touga we see in TV SKU is on a privileged path (hinted as richer than most of the rest of the private school goers)  that will for sure lead to his becoming powerfully wealthy in the future - if he work hard and be devious at the right times, then perhaps powerful enough to rebuild landmarks in Japan or beyond, and puppet world leaders with his wealth ala Wall Street Firm owners. 

Is Touga that impatient, that he want the adult-tycoon-influence over the World immediately at age 17?  If so, then he's "unusually desperate", and I still am inclined to think of the "why" behind his refusing to go step by step to get what he wants.  All this, up to sexual submission to a man when he clearly likes girls . . . just because of the impatience of youth?

You're not thinking large enough. The things you mention: university, CEO position, money, ruling over an empire...

These are things that Touga is looking at in his future and thinks, this is not enough....

Put yourself in the position of a Duelist. You are an adolescent, and whatever life you thought you had waiting for you is suddenly insignificant. You're offered the chance to take part in a contest where the victor gets miracles. To revolutionize the world. To grasp eternity.

What are concerns in the material world in comparison to this?

Touga isn't interested in becoming a CEO, or lording over a financial empire. He wants the faerie tale. He wants, in his own words, power like Akio's. He doesn't mean power over women like Akio. He means roughly what Dios is supposed to be, or the influence over another's life that Dios supposedly could give.

There's a conversation between Touga and Saionji in Episode 25 that goes something like this (depending on the translation):

Touga:  You remain as upright as ever.
Touga:  You'll be the champion of the local tournament this year again.
Saionji:  One of the reasons that I hate you is the way you're conceited now.
Touga:  Oh?
Saionji:  You are right. I will be the champion again this year.
Saionji:  But you think that that's meaningless child's play... and you're laughing in your heart.

Now, Touga denies this to Saionji, (likely because he's trying to get Saionji to duel and isn't about to have a conversation on this point) but Saionji has, in my opinion, nailed down why Touga is so haughty most of the time. It's because these little accomplishments in life, winning a kendo tournament, becoming a CEO, lording over an empire, are meaningless in the grand scale of time and history. You do something and it is forgotten. It changes nothing. The universe doesn't even forget it, because the universe never even took notice of it. So anyone who aspires to such lowly achievements is, in Touga's estimation, engaging in meaningless child's play.

Touga wants more than any material or worldly triumph. He's an adolescent who wants the fantasy, who believes in the fantasy, that something revolutionary can happen to him, or that he can in turn cause something revolutionary to happen.

This is the core angst of the entire series, this painful longing during that period of a teenager's life when they haven't accepted the simple pleasures of life for what they are, and desperately yearn for something far greater than the world is capable of offering.

So why is Touga willing to bottom for Akio? It's because Akio, to Touga's perception, has the very thing that Touga wants desperately.

From Episode 35:

Saionji:  You don't need to get letters. You serve him directly. Just get his orders firsthand.
Saionji:  Are you really happy with that? Why are you kissing his ass that much?
Touga:  He's the one who saved her back then.
Saionji:  Oh, I see.
Touga:  I want to become like him. I want power like his.

He means that. Akio doesn't need to be a CEO, or a chairman, or have money, and Touga knows this. He's talking about Akio as Akio appears to be, the power he supposedly has, that something eternal that lured Utena out of the coffin.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-06-2012 01:02:14 AM)

Ashnod wrote:
He means that. Akio doesn't need to be a CEO, or a chairman, or have money, and Touga knows this. He's talking about Akio as Akio appears to be, the power he supposedly has, that something eternal that lured Utena out of the coffin.

Oh, okay: so the assumption is that he wants the all-encompassing godly powers that Dios have - that even "powerful by worldly standards" Akio wants back, but hasn't been able to regain yet - and not just the still very much worldly powers that schemeing/laboring as a privileged human will get him.

If he does dream that big, to the point that he'd repeatedly do something most girl-loving teen boy will see as being manhood-destroying . . . then, considering how Juri's miracles only involves being free from emot entangling with Shiori, Miki's finding a shining child-Kozue substitue, Sai's having eternal friendship . . . then I guess Touga's character is "disproportionally" above the pack in his ambition/greed, should you assumption hold true.

More guesses on Dios wannabe Touga and his attitude towards life, which could be either:
a) current life not all that privileged by his standard (no fairytale kingdom where I am king is no kingdom for me!)
b) the privileges might somehow vanish at any moment and is unstable (since he's not blood Kiryuu)
c) both of the above

Ashnod wrote:

I think the messy entanglement with Shiori is symbolic of Juri's frustration, but to say that she only wants the miracle power to be free of Shiori or to have Shiori understand her is very belittling to who Juri is.

Alternately, I think you're maybe selling short the depth and seriousness of Juri's feelings, here. Or, Saionji's friendship and attachment to Touga.

These may seem like small things, or very personal, limited wishes, but they seem sincere enough, to me, to not require a for-us-world-shattering ulterior motive. For those characters, those little wishes are world-changing and significant.

Last edited by Decrescent Daytripper (09-06-2012 11:33:32 AM)

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

I think the messy entanglement with Shiori is symbolic of Juri's frustration, but to say that she only wants the miracle power to be free of Shiori or to have Shiori understand her is very belittling to who Juri is.

Alternately, I think you're maybe selling short the depth and seriousness of Juri's feelings, here. Or, Saionji's friendship and attachment to Touga.

These may seem like small things, or very personal, limited wishes, but they seem sincere enough, to me, to not require a for-us-world-shattering ulterior motive. For those characters, those little wishes are world-changing and significant.

Oh, no, I understand to the respective characters, these wishes seem critical and hold devastating importance to them.

I said a few posts back that crushing angst of feeling insignificant in the face of life was one of the key parts of the adolescent theme.
Another part, and you're correct to point it out, is the adolescent way that the tiniest of things seem world-shattering and insurmountable.

I have never doubted the characters' sincerity on their respective desires. But I also don't think the characters are limited to only those desires, or that those desires encompass the entire reason they are willing to be Duelists.

Ashnod wrote:

I have never doubted the characters' sincerity on their respective desires. But I also don't think the characters are limited to only those desires, or that those desires encompass the entire reason they are willing to be Duelists.

It's almost certainly not the only reason.  One of the lines I like the most from the CP sub (although I gather, based on the scripts from the translation project, it was a somewhat liberal exercise on CP's part) is when Akio says in EP 13, "The young always wish to destroy the world."

I always saw one of the themes of SKU as being this cusp where naive idealism might give way to jaded cynicism.  Don't most kids at least half-believe in magic?  Doesn't growing up sometimes feel like a series of terrible disappointments, like life is chortling with glee as one-by-one it kicks down all your sandcastles?  Suddenly you realize failure is depressingly real, despite being told that if you persevere you will be rewarded--keep trying!  People you trust will shamelessly hurt you, despite the fact that you're supposed to be able to trust people, have genuine friends, and la-la-love conquers all.

It's something of a black-and-white fallacy, but it's like you have to choose between two extremes...  One of which is becoming someone unfamiliar and possibly abhorrent to your childhood self.  The other is an exhausting campaign of deliberate ignorance and denial.  It's natural to think that if the world is so ugly and people are so awful, it would be best to tear it all down and start over.

What can I believe in?  What sort of person am I?  What will my future look like?  Identity is forming itself in a trial by fire.  These are universal issues that present themselves for individuals in obviously highly personal forms.  Each of the duelists are confronting similar existential crises, but each duelist's circumstances are unique.

I do get what you mean.  Although, maybe this is just me, as someone who read way too many fantasy novels growing up.  But if someone had come up to me and been like, "Here's a sword that appears out of your body, and here's a castle floating in the sky.  If you duel, you can be hero.  You'll save the princess and get a magical power to change the world however you want."  I think I would have gone fucking apeshit.  That would have been a big goddamn deal.  Seriously, holy shit.

However, it's inevitable each duelist will be informed by their personal experiences.  At the end of the day, the disappointments preoccupying each will be personal traumas.  I've always felt the narrative focuses on these for good reason.  "Everyone has a story", it says, "and everyone has their reasons."  If, like many anime, each character had used more general, disinterested language and we had not seen inside their heads so much the message would have been very different.

I view SKU as coming from a...very humanist or existential place.  It's not the tale of a few intrepid heroes fighting a dragon, it's the tales of flawed individuals figuring out their own fates.  Which is not small at all, it's the biggest thing there is.

So . . . back on the topic of whether the rape makes Touga more/less of a character.

Unraped Touga (the why settle for just cupcake when I can sell my ass to get patisserie desserts version): Privileged rich brat who's on a path of worldly success but still can't get enough; he still wants to be Dios God Like and change everyone's existences so he can gloat of being supernova, and will do things that most girl-liking teen boys will see as manhood-destroying to get Dios' power.

Raped Touga (the my cupcake got dead bugs in it so I'll have to sell my ass to obtain much needed patisserie desserts for myself and my sister version): Privileged on surface boy weighted down by (perhaps continued to the TV show's time) sexual abuses, which made him insecured/discontent (perhaps with good reason, as his rich-boy status will be completely reliant on his sex-slave status to Mr. Kiryuu, who does not see him as a son, so things can turn bad at any time) to the point that he be the power-hungry lapdog we see in the show - all to change his bad place in life.  His many sex-abuses from Mr. Kiryuu has since prepped him for his sessions with Akio.

I guess there's really no way to define which one is deeper/less shallow as a character - only which one is better-presented-for-audience's entertainment.  The TV show presents us with Unraped Touga - while its plot leaves open very real possibility for Raped Touga, which the writer said is the real thing.  I myself find Raped Touga to be a bit more interesting as that makes for a more blatantly dramatic fanfic material, but many do feel differently on this issue, and I can to see why after reading their lengthy, often fact-supported viewpoints.

So, I guess it really is "to each their own".

I gotta say I'm really torn on whether it makes his character better or worse. Touga without a history of rape is so indifferent to the value of sex that selling his ass to Akio seems almost like an afterthought. Like he does it easily, because what's sex to him? He's done it tons with all kinds of dumb broads, so if he can get something out of it, well whoop whoop. That's...interesting, and a bit terrifying because that kind of perspective can and does happen, where nothing in your life has bestowed a value on the act. And that feels inherently wrong, because it means that an intimate encounter with another human being is meaningless to you. You're that shut off. That's Touga.

On the other hand, raped Touga does have an internal value placed on sex. It's something that's scarred him in the past, and casts a shadow over every intimate act he engages in after. Is sleeping with all these girls soothing to him, because he has control with them that he lacked before? Is sleeping with Akio dangerous to him, because he recognizes the feeling of being overpowered? Does it makes him all the more seductive with Akio in rebellion? Does he jump into bed with Akio eagerly, because to hesitate, to show nervousness, to seem uncomfortable, would be weak? That's Touga, too.

It doesn't change his behaviors at all, just the approach he takes to them. It's a fascinating contrast. But I'll be honest. I have never given a rotten fig for what the creators say after the fact. There's the 'official' story, and the story each of us have discovered in the deliberately vague presentation of the story the creators told. The show doesn't tell us he was raped, and it doesn't tell us he wasn't. It lets us guess, and that guess says as much about us as it does about Touga.