I think Utena doesn't recall Touga or Saionji because, at the time, she was a traumatized little girl.  She didn't actually see either boy and I think after she vowed to be a prince and began to grow up, she repressed the memories of being in the coffin and gher encounter with the boys.  Because she wanted to be strong and noble, just like her prince, having her emotional breakdown, hiding in the coffin, only served to remind her of her own weakness.  She denied the incident to herself so often, trying to convince herself she hadn't been weak, she managed to repress the memories. 

The reason Touga's presence in the first arc gives her that odd "prince" feeling is that even though she repressed the memories, Touga did touch her hair, he did have a more direct connection to her than Saionji did.  Perhaps it was just the rhythm of his voice that sparked some recollection of that time, allowing her to confuse him with her prince.  Perhaps it was the repeated motion of Touga running his fingers through her hair.  it was the exact same motion and I don't think Utena slapped his hand away because she didn't want the contact.  I think she did it because it caused a piece of that memory to come forth about that day in the coffin.  She doesn't merely slap away his hand, she does it with a closed fist, a representation of anger, with the signet ring right in Touga's face.  She lashed out at him, not because she didn't want the contact, but because it reminded her of how weak she'd been.  She was angry at herself more than Touga.  The displaying of the ring was something akin to a security blanket reminding her of her promise to be a prince; and princes aren't weak.

As a side note on utena's emotional reactions throughout the series: If something is really bothering her and it concerns someone else, someone else is the focus, she gets really emotional.  I think when it comes to something that is really upsetting her or bothering her deep inside that has to do with her own character, she shuts the emotion off.  it's not until Akio comes around and starts playing with those strings that Utena starts to display emotional reactions to her OWN predicaments and feelings.

Saionji's lack of recognition is the easiest, in my opinion, to explain.  He has always been focused on Touga and his rivalry.  It didn't matter WHO it was that was in the coffin.  During the course of the series, especially during the Seitokai Arc, he sees anyone but Touga and Anthy as insignificant and not worthy of his attention or recollection.  As the years went by, the girl in the coffin stopped being the sad and lonely girl he wasnted to show eternity to, but became just another girl, another situation, where Touga bested him. 

Now Touga, on the other hand... he's a little tougher to explain.  I don't think he met Akio when he was a child.  I think he was just good at reading Utena's emotional state and his favorite game was baiting Saionji.  I think he just made it seem like he knew more than he did to get to Saionji.  I think Touga was brought into the Seitokai through Ruka and that's when he met Akio.  From the way Ruka, Touga and Akio all acted during the calling of the car and all with Juri leads me to believe that Ruka was possibly the president and when he got sick, it got passed onto Touga.  I don't think Touga knew for certain that Utena was the girl in the coffin during the Seitokai Arc - again, I believe he's really good at reading people.  He might have had an inkling, gut feeling you could say, and he ran with it.  Out of the three of them, Touga would have the best memory of the past encounter.  The moment when I believe Touga knew for certain that Utena was the girl was during their first duel.  Touga might be a cocky bastard, but I don't think he would have left himself so utterly vulnerable to Utena's blade unless he knew he had her.  If he didn't make the connection between Utena and the girl in the coffin, he wouldn't have exposed himself.

Just my take on things.

Last edited by angelicreation (12-25-2006 10:36:22 PM)

Oh yes, Touga was definitely fascinated with the girl in the coffin.  More along the lines that before then he didn't know girls could be like that.  Perhaps because of this encounter with Utena, Nanami turned out the way she did.  Perhaps Touga started protecting Nanami so fervently after the encounter with Utena and that's where Nanami gets her brother worshipping from.  If that's all she knew from a young age, it makes sense that she'd never imagine her life without it.

Giovanna wrote:

morosemocha wrote:

Touga on the other hand...he wants to know the girl, and touching someone's hair, especially the way he let Utena's hair run through his fingers is a pretty intimate gesture.

I wondered a bit about that when I watched it this time around. Watching it again, I had a thought that Touga looked almost distracted. Entranced even, by this girl's hair in his fingers. He's staring at it and stroking it while she speaks, and though he plainly hears her, a huge chunk of his attention seems to land on what's in his hand.

I absolutely agree that Saionji was more preoccupied with the idea of her than her identity, but I wonder if Touga was so different there. She's not her hair, and though it is an intimate gesture...I don't know. It was almost like Touga was preoccupied with the girl as an idea. Especially a weak girl. His comment about being an ally to all girls suggests he's already well on his way to the school pimp we see in the series, but I wonder if this event didn't, in some way, push him faster down that road. There's long, silky hair all over the cast and he's the worst offender there, but how often is a woman's hair looked at almost symbolically as her femininity? How often it's mentioned in romantic poems, or doted on when you want a girl to blush?

I dunno, I'm talking out my arse and don't even know if I buy that, but it's a thought to throw out there.

I think that's an interesting thought right there -- Touga focusing on Utena's hair as a symbol of her femininity. I mean, in the good ol' days of princes and white horses and damsels in distress, said damsels always had long hair (and in the case of Rapunzel, a scalp attached to her head with iron staples). Touga seems to be focusing on her hair, which as we've already shown draws the viewer's attention to it. Does it emphasise that she is a girl to us? Perhaps. It certainly demonstrates to us an Utena who is far "weaker" than we have seen before, which is a bit of a shake-up for us. (And also a preview for Utena's falling-apart two-piece yet to come.) So yes, perhaps Touga is focusing on it as he is seeing her as a helpless girl, but of course that brings up the question...Touga wants to save Utena, apparently. He calls himself an "ally to all girls." But he doesn't. The thing is, Touga and Saionji must have LEFT her there, which makes me curious. Saionji knew he was out of his depth -- you could see that in his eyes. Yet Touga left her...and was glad to see someone else had saved her later.

OH CRAP I HAVE CONFUSED MYSELF ALL OF A SUDDEN.

I think what I am trying to say, though, is that I find it slightly odd that Touga was able to let her go when he saw that he couldn't save her...which may account for his obsession with her hair rather than her face (and excuses somewhat his inability to recognise her later, when this surely is a critical point in his childhood friendship with Saionji). Touga doesn't look at her, but focuses on her hair, because he knows he can't save her. And he later lies indirectly about it to Saionji because he felt guilty for it...and this perhaps shows why he becomes what he does. He wants to save girls, but the only person he saw was capable of it was Akio...big man-whore on campus. Which may account for Touga's chivalrous bullshit act. Hmm.

...that does of course imply to me that Touga knew from fairly early on that Akio had saved Utena.

As for Utena and Saionji, I agree with what has been said. Utena's shut away the details of her memories (I think the Shadow Play Girls' intepretation of the story is the PG-Disney version that Utena runs on) so she scarcely recalls the boys who found her first (she may not even remember them at all; her echoed thought of "why does everyone go on living if they all have to die anyway?" tends to come to her in fragmented dreams, the way the true nature of Anthy's eternity does). Saionji probably didn't even get a good look at her; as Touga talks to her, Saionji backs further and further away from the coffin. And then focuses entirely on his friend. Which as has been said earlier, is Saionji in a nutshell; he can't actually deal with the emotional minefield of that, so he focuses on Touga and releases his anger and frustration...emotions he can understand, if certainly not control.

And Gio, I this thread! This ep is totally my favourite from an arc I also pay very little attention to, except when I need backstory for some godforsaken latter series essay...

Giovanna wrote:

See this I wonder about. It strikes me as wrong to assume they knew him, no doubt he was pulling strings even then, he likes to keep his victims all in one place and this is no exception, but Saionji doesn't appear particularly familiar with Akio, not so that their interaction would date that far back. Touga...is harder. He obviously was speaking to Ends of the World directly from early on, but I wonder how 'friendly' they got and when. For some reason I've always taken the whole 'That was an indecent suggestion, Chairman.' dialogue to somehow represent the beginning of their sexual relationship, though that certainly might not be the case. For some reason I also take it for granted their sexual relationship lines up with when Touga finds out the Chairman and Ends of the World are the same man. Seems to me when he'd be most likely to jump into bed with him, all that power in one place, and all.

It's bloody hard to work out how long Touga has known Akio, and for how long he's understood what Akio is, but I agree that the sexual relationship likely as not started during the series. Although Akio's a hedonist, I think he knows well enough that to get Touga into bed too soon would have been a mistake (and I decide that from his behaviour with Utena, and how long he waited to get her into bed; different reasons for the delay in each case). What would the mistake be? I guess I am thinking of sex as a tool, but a tool that can be a bit heavy-handed. In the case of Utena, I guess I think he'd worry about making her too dependent on him; in the case of Touga, too independent. If you can see where I am going with this ramble. O_o

But in short, I guess I'm really just showing that I haven't the slightest idea when they met. You could assume perhaps from Touga's little smile when Saionji asks him the next day if the girl has been saved that he knows for a fact that someone else did -- and met him -- or that he's just glad somebody did. Hmm.

Giovanna wrote:

Either way...what do we gain by Saionji disappearing? The only person Saionji's presence directly impacts is Touga, so Touga is the only reason Saionji would leave, whether it was his idea or Akio's. But...why? Did he not want Saionji around during the events that unfold right after? I would imagine for several reasons this could be the case, perhaps Saionji would have been a problem in one way or another. He might have mucked up Touga's seduction of Utena. He might have thrown a fit over Touga's using Nanami like that, at that point. (I bet he wouldn't approve, anyway.) Or...maybe maybe maybe, Touga was getting Saionji out of the way to spare him. Maybe.

I have to wonder how things would have unfolded for Touga if Saionji had stayed. Even that early on, despite everything, there's a hint of Saionji being Touga's Bitchy Voice of Reason. The kind of voice of reason that would say something vicious and rude and pissy about Touga hiding in his room an entire arc. Maybe something bitchy enough to snap him out of it. Or, perhaps, he might have gotten snarky and disapproving of Akio's deepening (HURR) relationship with Touga early enough to slow or tamper with it. It just seems odd that by his own hand, Touga sends away the one person with any, remote as it was, regulating influence over him at a point where he probably could have used it.

I always wonder why Touga orchestrated Saionji's expulsion myself. Strangely enough I tend to go for the idea that Touga did it because Saionji had served his purpose in the duelling game and now wished to take him out of it as his "reward," but that assumes two things: firstly, that Touga would listen to Akio when Akio tells him Saionji is no longer needed (either because Touga still has some affection for Saionji, or because Touga figures perhaps Saionji's useful shelf life isn't over), and secondly that Touga actually gives a damn about Saionji. Which is...debatable. I think there are vestiges of a real friendship still there, which brings me into the next bit nicely.

I agree that Saionji acts somewhat as Touga's "conscience," in that he's the only person in Touga's peer group with the balls to point out when Touga's being an asshead. Touga knows this, and thus has to remove Saionji from the game in case Saionji tries something that screws things up. Curious thing is, though, that surely Touga ought to have realised that he couldn't get Saionji out of the game without Akio approving...and perhaps this ought to concern him. That Akio wants Touga's so-called "even keel" out of the picture. Hmm.

Giovanna wrote:

I know I keep coming back to this, but only because it drives me nuts and interests me. I agree completely on that. I want to know WHY. Why does Saionji cower when he's afraid? Why is anger the emotion he understands? I know you could say some of this is just his disposition, but good lord he reeks of abused child. Seriously. Touga? I don't think he was abused so much as neglected. Even this far back there's an air about him that suggests he's been very independent. Saionji...I dunno. If it wasn't him getting hit in his house, it was someone else.

I always get this mental image of that adorable boy standing just off a doorway hiding from the sight of his mother getting sent across the kitchen. Maybe she was kissing his cheek a moment ago, and he can feel her lips there still, and he touches his face, shaking, but he doesn't know what to do. Poor baby.

No, I think you're probably on to something there -- I'd be fairly certain that Saionji has had something happen to him in his past that has made him end up like that. He does strike me as that type, particularly when he's that young. The way he reacts when the whole thing goes down makes me think it was probably his mother getting abused; just...the expression on his face as Utena talks of losing his parents. And the way he claps his hands over his ears and closes his eyes and hunkers down when something he doesn't like starts happening. It also would sit with his later behaviour, in that he decides he doesn't want to be "weak" and behaves in the only way he knows to be "strong." And it's funny how we were talking about Saionji being something of a "calming" influence on Touga (calming in the way that he'll tell Touga straight up when he's being a dick). I think Touga was something of a good influence on Saionji too, in that he showed Saionji that strength can also be found in a disciplined sport like kendo...in which violent emotions are tempered and controlled. Which is what Touga is most of the time.

As for Touga, he was independent as a cat from an early age, I think. Hell, he probably half-raised Nanami, which is why she's so dependent on him/screwed in the head.

Clarice wrote:

I guess I am thinking of sex as a tool, but a tool that can be a bit heavy-handed. In the case of Utena, I guess I think he'd worry about making her too dependent on him; in the case of Touga, too independent. If you can see where I am going with this ramble. O_o

That sounds about right to me. I think in Touga's case it had a lot to do with a promotion. (Sex with boss = MANDATORY!) But what I mean is when Touga finally shows up again, his role is no longer as the seitokaichou, but his new position is much closer to Akio and so much more informed, and that access to information is what fuels him, and in the naughty bad bad language Akio and Touga speak, sex is almost part of that. Touga literally and figuratively gets into bed with Akio.

Clarice wrote:

Curious thing is, though, that surely Touga ought to have realised that he couldn't get Saionji out of the game without Akio approving...and perhaps this ought to concern him. That Akio wants Touga's so-called "even keel" out of the picture. Hmm.

I would say Touga wasn't aware of it. He wouldn't, especially at this point in the series, think he needed an 'even keel'. His duels in this arc come down on his head and knock some of the wind out of his sails, but he's better in the end for it because he calculates more afterward, and relies less on being cocky. He needed that kick in the ass to really start listening to Saionji. I don't think Touga would have thought to question that in particular if Akio gave the go-ahead to lose Saionji. After all, there are a million justifications for it that either could have provided.

Clarice wrote:

The way he reacts when the whole thing goes down makes me think it was probably his mother getting abused; just...the expression on his face as Utena talks of losing his parents. And the way he claps his hands over his ears and closes his eyes and hunkers down when something he doesn't like starts happening.

Yes, exactly. See I had that mental image before I tried to figure out why, but he responds to trauma in a way that just suggests that. I would imagine he wasn't spared the rod as a kid, but he behaves as someone that witnesses abuse, and combine that with his habit of hitting people...that's a learned behavior. He saw that happen, and repeatedly, until it was normal enough to him that he finds himself doing even when it bothers him to do so. But the hunkering down...definitely witness to abuse. And in the home; Saionji doesn't physically attempt to retreat. He could have run but he assumes he can't get away and just hides as best he can.

Clarice wrote:

I think Touga was something of a good influence on Saionji too, in that he showed Saionji that strength can also be found in a disciplined sport like kendo...in which violent emotions are tempered and controlled. Which is what Touga is most of the time.

Absolutely. They pair well with each other, each having a flaw the other checks, and an ability the other needs access to. Saionji has intuition and perspective but not control, and Touga has ambition but so much that it gives him tunnel vision. Touga was definitely a positive in Saionji's childhood, which is why he goes so berserk over the change in their relationship. Saionji needed that, and Touga took it away before he'd been exposed enough to not need it anymore. Like taking the training wheels off too early; Saionji might have absorbed some of the traits he admired and needed from Touga, what could have brought him a bit out of his shell, but the process hadn't finished.

Strangely I'm reminded of Wakaba. 'Just a little bit longer, and I would have been reborn.'

Ragnarok wrote:

I think he is glad or relieved that someone stepped up to the plate, since he couldn't. At the same time, I wonder if his smile was specifically to make Saionji think he'd been the one to save her.

This sounds about right to me. I don't think he knew Akio or what happened to Utena. Part of it was glad she got out, the rest was letting Saionji think it was him. An unnecessary barb but done anyway.

Anyway I was flipping through the episode again (don't ask), and a few things caught my attention. Most of them involving body language. (Touga closes his eyes when he's waiting for the right moment to do something, almost meditative. I saw it twice.) However a bit more important here...Saionji runs at Anthy first. I thought that was interesting, it took a false manipulation of circumstance to put Utena ahead of him, without the platforms shooting up, he'd have 'saved' Anthy first. Motives and such aside, it took an artificial edge to get Utena there first. I think this says more about Utena's position as a 'prince' right now than it says about Saionji though.

Ragnarok wrote:

(I kind of don't want to bring this up, because I'm sure it's an animation error, but...)

All throughout the arena scene, Saionji isn't wearing his rose signet. He has it on when he's with Anthy and I believe he still has it when Utena wakes him up. But as soon as they get to the Arena it's missing. I would dearly love an in-series explanation for that.

Well, Occam's Razor suggests that the animators failed to put it in.  If the show's budget was as horrific as described it makes some sense that a detail like that would be forgotten.

If we assume it was intentional, though...hmm...I need to check on something.

They totally fucked up Saionji. Seriously.

There are shots in his first duel where he has it, then suddenly he doesn't. Episode 9 is a total mess, he's wearing it when he busts into the arena, but not when he's in it. When he's shaking his fist at the castle? No ring. The shot of his hand against the glass of the rose garden is his left, but he's not wearing the ring.

This looks like sloppiness, as much as I hate to say it. Saionji would be the last one of them on earth to take off their ring for any reason at all, and aside from that, I doubt he paused in the middle of dueling Utena to take his ring off, even with his seriously underestimating her.

Bad, BAD animators. Spankings for you!

I just checked the first arc, though, I can't say if this improves any later on. By episode 36, I would say there's a reason the ring's off. Saionji backed out of the game before anyone.

Flipping through I did notice Touga seems to always have his on. The only exceptions are a couple shots that are from far enough away to justify it not being drawn.

It strikes me so odd that they'd make an error like that, but manage to put accurate body language in.

That said, I am finding the first arc is less heavy on the body language accuracy than latter arcs, though actually the animation quality is much higher. (Though they obviously had a bitch of a time deciding how to draw the older male characters, I'm kinda glad Akio didn't go through the same miserable 'HOW DO I DRAW FACE' problem Touga had.)

Apparently this was the maiden voyage for the animation studio, their first full length anime series, and well...it shows. They also couldn't make up their minds which hands the characters dueled with, though that one I tend to think has an explanation that if not deliberate, is fitting. I understand them not drawing the ring from a distance, but there are plenty of shots in the first arc where they really should have been there but are not. I'll see how it goes in the BRS soon...

Ragnarok wrote:

Aww, come on!  Somone pull an explanation out of thier butt!

...um...the silver was tarnished and the ring was out being cleaned? (Yes, DURING A DUEL. That's what we call DOOR TO DOOR SERVICE. Or maybe that was Chu-Chu's day job. Y'know, he's small enough not to be seen down there with his little rag...)

I'm sorry. You'd think that with an ass like mine there'd be something in there worth pulling out.

Giovanna wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

I think he is glad or relieved that someone stepped up to the plate, since he couldn't. At the same time, I wonder if his smile was specifically to make Saionji think he'd been the one to save her.

This sounds about right to me. I don't think he knew Akio or what happened to Utena. Part of it was glad she got out, the rest was letting Saionji think it was him. An unnecessary barb but done anyway.

I think this whole thing is really kind of scary. I mean, I am not Touga's biggest fan -- in fact the only place I really like him is in the movie, and I bawl my eyes out at that damn elevator scene every gorram time -- but the implication is that even before The Game got started for them, he was willing to dick over his rather fragile friend for an advantage. And the thing is, it was the first time he did it -- the trust between them before the coffin and the church was palpable, and then one little lie by omission and BOOM NO MORE BIKE RIDES TO RANDOM PEOPLE'S FUNERALS BOO.

Although I think it demonstrates something other than Touga's inclinations towards being a twat -- something fairly significant. We're discussing here who knows what, yes? And though we could debate for hours whether this is when Touga met Akio or not and never get an answer, I think Akio at least became aware of both Saionji and Touga at this stage...and of their potential use to him. It can't be a mistake that these boys became one of Utena's later catalysts, after what the three of them went through in that church. Question is, did Akio draw them in? (Possibly using those two men and that mildly creepy story of the girl was was "spirited away"? Which is, I think, the worst mistranslation of the show; "kidnapped" doesn't echo the sentiment at all to me...particularly not in light of Saionji's reaction to it. It looks strange as hell that Saionji is actually kind of charmed by the "perhaps she was kidnapped!" theory until you realise the Japanese phrase is a bit more whimsical instead of being as sinister as it sounds in English.) Was Akio gathering his pieces even then? And did he know that Touga would chose to play his hand the way that he did, thereby creating a rift between two childhood friends that he could exploit the fuck out of later?

Akio has a lot of patience in setting up his gameboard -- just look at poor Professor Nemuro. Which really begs the question (the answer to which being beyond this thread) of: how did everyone get drawn into this round of the game? Utena drew in Touga, Saionji and Nanami...what about Juri? Through Ruka? And what about Miki?

And of course, was Utena deliberately chosen or was she just convenient? Hmm. This episode confuses me. I need more chocolate before I can go on.

Giovanna wrote:

Anyway I was flipping through the episode again (don't ask), and a few things caught my attention. Most of them involving body language. (Touga closes his eyes when he's waiting for the right moment to do something, almost meditative. I saw it twice.) However a bit more important here...Saionji runs at Anthy first. I thought that was interesting, it took a false manipulation of circumstance to put Utena ahead of him, without the platforms shooting up, he'd have 'saved' Anthy first. Motives and such aside, it took an artificial edge to get Utena there first. I think this says more about Utena's position as a 'prince' right now than it says about Saionji though.

I agree. I think the whole seitokai arc is about Utena deciding she wants to save Anthy, and not the ideal of Anthy. The irony being that she then wants to save the false Anthy (which gets even more ironically hilarious when you realise Utena does this against a backdrop of Mikage and Mamiya!Anthy...ah, the masks that girl wears somedays...). Utena doesn't want to save the REAL Anthy until Anthy attempts a 10.0 swandive off the roof of the school. And even then Anthy turns on her in favour of her brother. [coughs] But my point is that I think you're entirely correct -- Saionji goes about everything the wrong way, but at this stage his need/want/desire to save Anthy is a little bit more solidified than Utena's, possibly because he knows Anthy (somewhat) as a person, while as to Utena she's still a bit of an enigma. Thing is, though, the One Engaged usually doesn't have a clue who Anthy really is nor what she really wants because she reflects better than the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles. Whee.